this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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Yeah, after playing it I was like...this game should have been called Lilith, but of course the brand recognition wouldn't be there. At least put a subtitle like Daughter of Hatred or something. I mean come on, give her some credit at least LOL!
Personally, I actually liked Lilith's more complicated take on the big bad. I was actually rooting for her against
spoiler
Inarius and thought her plan of getting rid of Mephisto was better than what we eventually did, which was trapping yet another Prime Evil in a soulstone...again.But hey, Wanderer, you made your own choice!
...I really hated how they rubbed into my face the fact that I couldn't choose anything but that :D
Really wish they let players choose to back Lilith - her plan to fight prime evils was the only one that didn’t lead to a never ending wheel.
Hey you’ve got this option to end an eternal conflict of which you’re smack middle of and getting fucked by both sides; but we’ll go ahead and stick to the eternal conflict.
There could’ve been so much follow up to that choice too: fighting angels how ant to stop you from getting too powerful, fighting other primes and their armies as they fear we kill them, building protections into the world to separate it from everything, and more.
If you chose to back Lilith, the eternal conflict would've ended...with her winning and everyone else losing. I'm not sure why there are so many Lilith supporters, Guulrahn made it pretty clear she doesn't care about humans and is just using them as a tool for her own power.
Everyone was already constantly losing against the Prime Evils anyways. I think she does care somewhat about humanity in general or at least striving for what she thinks an elevated humanity might be, but she isn't against doing whatever is necessary to achieve her goals. Her ends definitely did not justify the means. Still I think, given a choice, siding with Lilith still would have been better than what ended up getting in the end, which was
spoiler
Neyrelle disappearing and doing god knows what with Mephisto. She's probably already being slowly corrupted.Man...Lemmy really needs inline spoilers.
Now imagine Mephisto outside of the soulstone but with another major demon's power on top of his.
That's what Lilith would have been after consuming him. The Neyrelle dumb decision is a separate issue.
It's the other way around. Imagine Lilith with another major demon's power on top of hers. Lilith being the driver is better than Mephisto IMHO. Mephisto has no qualms saying what he plans for humanity. I think Lilith, having had a major hand in creating Sanctuary and humanity in the first place, would have had at least some overlapping interests that would have worked in our favor.
It's like picking between one person who says they're definitely going to kill you and another person who says they'll maybe kill you if the need arises.
Again, that's not any better.
If someone tells you they're going to slap you and another one doesn't, you're still getting slapped. And in this case, you didn't get slapped by either but you might down the road.
Like I said, at least some of what Lilith wants aligns with humanity's interests. Enemy of my enemy is my friend type deal. I am not saying Lilith is a saint, I am just saying you can at least bargain with her. We're all just trying to pick the lesser of two evils.
Besides, siding with Mephisto just means doing the same shit we've been doing for the past 3 games and we all know how that worked out. Even if we're getting slapped eventually, at least we aren't doing the same thing that we already know hasn't worked for us before.
Yes, I did watch the lore videos. None of them change my view on the matter actually. Angels and demons have been killing each other since the dawn of creation so I don't see Lilith's actions as any different or any more ruthless. Also, she did that in defense of the Nephalem, which humanity descended from, so I feel like I have more in common with her goals than Mephisto's.
So would existence under any of the Prime Evils.
Don't get me wrong, I think she's terrible in the grand scheme of things. I just think that humanity being descendants of the Nephalem have more interests that align with Lilith compared to Mephisto and that might ultimately lead to a change in the never ending eternal conflict. For example, I think she would have wanted to protect Sanctuary itself, whereas both the heavens and the hells wouldn't give two shits about destroying it if it served their purposes. I also disagree about the part where she didn't care about humanity, because humanity is just essentially the children of her spawn. Plus, wasn't Uldyssian a human who later regained his Nephalem powers? So its there, just hidden by the Worldstone tweaks that Inarius did.
spoiler
If my "husband" murdered my son and then impaled me through a wall with a spear and I was in a position to do something about it after the fact, I'd stab and kill him too lol.Lilith isn't great...I just don't think Mephisto is the answer. That's what I mean by choosing the lesser evil...he's the worse choice out of the two. At least humanity has a bond with Lilith through being part of her extended family.
One question for you since you seem knowledgeable about the lore: What happened to the Nephalem after D3? In D3 the player character is a nephalem and in D4 we're just some random human as far as I know. And that's fine. I just want to know what happened to the player characters of D3 in the transit to D4.
I feel like battling Mephisto and winning at least keeps humanity alive in its current form.
Lilith might actually enslave everyone.
Uhh, I thought the point was both Inarius and Lilith didn't care one bit about humans except for as a tool
I'd agree that was the overall point but the choice isn't between Inarius and Lilith, we can choose neither because they're both awful.
She actually had made clear the opposite; she wanted the humans to regain their strength, back to the levels of the original Nephalem, that both heaven and hell feared.
Multiple times she references how so much was stolen from her children and how she would return them back to their power.
It was Inarius that gave up on the humans and regretted making them; using them only as a tool to get what he wanted: a way back into heaven.
Oh Inarius was definitely just using humans.
But I don't really trust a word that Lilith says. I think she's manipulative as a core trait of her character which was really well written just from how many players she has convinced.
She's kind of a murderous demon monster though. Lilith in charge of sanctuary does not seem better than demons occasionally trying to invade sanctuary.
Lilith got way too much of a minor role to name the game after her. She's a minor villain at best and already dead after a short campaign where we once again make weird ass stupid decisions. I wish we could've joined her, instead of her becoming another cartoon villain that makes people mindless and insane for "reasons". Even her becoming a prime evil would've been a way cooler move. But now they fired that bullet and it's never going to be able to come back. Real shame for such an iconic figure in the history of the game lore.
I agree. During the whole section
spoiler
where she traps you in your mind, I was like...no, I don't want to say no to you. Let's break the fucking cycle and actually DEAL with the prime evils instead of just doing the same old soulstone trick. But alas, it's not that type of game.Only way I can justify it: Mephisto is a prime evil. Lilith a lesser evil. Both clearly already have influence over the entire party. Mephisto manipulating the hero into imprisoning him has to be part of his game plan.
Killing Lilith and imprisoning Mephisto is really the only logical choice. You were really going to side with a Lesser Evil, the daughter of Hatred, and think it was going to be all dandy candy?
I have no reason why they would let a child walk around with a prime evil soulstone though lmao.
Lilith isn't a lesser evil. And yes, I'd side with the one power that actually wants to fight for Sanctuary instead of being just caught between the two bullies of the eternal conflict, which already brought humankind to almost extinction. But besides her motives, I just would've found it so much more exciting to have a new force like this in the game / lore, one that isn't just your stereotypical angel or demon.
Why we let Neyrelle go off like that? I don't know. One of the many stupid things in the story. I also don't know why Lorath told Inarius about the soul stone and even showed it to him. Or why we told Elias about his lacking immortality instead of just dealing the death blow for a last time. It's all not quite as bad as the bullshit from D3 but I am really not a fan of what they did with the story. With the MMO aspects they could've even introduced factions. Let people join Lilith (could've been an introduction of the Lilin in D4), or Inarius, and have their forces mangle it out in team based pvp zones, or helltide like open world events with lots of NPC enemies that maybe even take over ownership of the settlements. Both factions could've been used to also unlock specific classes, like some holy warrior class for the cathedral of light and something else for the followers of Lilith. But I guess we rather do stupid weird seasonal paid FOMO events.
I need to learn Lemmy's markdown syntax. But I agree. I really liked Lilith as a character and her motivations were solid.
spoiler
But then you win the fight, go back and the epilogue lasts all of a couple of minutes before the game loop starts over when you hop to World Tier III. It felt unsatisfying not to have a Prime Evil to contend with, and if I'm honest, the Butcher is a harder boss than Lilith each time you run into him.Motivations yes, how she went about it no. Having the few remaining humans do a sort of battle royal is not going to make them stronger, it will just cull most of them. And I absolutely hated how she just ended up making most people insane. Like when the villagers in the beginning started to have that dumb smile while clapping the priest I just cringed. Real cartoon villain vibes, which is such a shame for such an important character as Lilith, which is now gone forever since she didn't became a prime evil.
Maybe not gone forever...
spoiler
Donan did mention that outside of trapping her within the stone, no matter what they did she'd eventually return. I can't imagine her soul escaped Hell after we merc her.I doubt it, but we'll see, or not, I guess. I did like her visual design & voice actress though, at least when she did her calm and motherly talks. Maybe IF she returns, and the forces of hell come for Sanctuary proper, then we get another shot at joining forces. But again, I doubt it.
Maybe I missed it in the lore/story so apologies if that's the case. But what timeline is this game set in? Is it possible this is the first time they locked Mephisto in the soul stone? Like a D2 prequel?
It's a direct sequel to D3 - Cain is dead, Lorath says something off-hand about Diablo's recent fall.
Oh, that's right. I remember now Meshif talking about it as well. Thanks for the reminder
No, it's decades after Malthael decimated like half of humankind, which is one of the reasons why humans are struggling so much more now.
It occurs 50 years post Diablo III, unfortunately.
Nah they reference the world stone and invasion of the mountain (Ariat?) way too much.