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Yeah, I'm gonna take the peer reviewed studies results that show that ketamine is quite effective with relieving drug resistant depression over this post of yours...
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2023/10/ketamine.html
Yeah but I don’t like when peoole see one study and then claim that it’s conclusive. The consensus is that there may there might be something to it being useful for depression, and it should be studied further. No high confidence.
It is useful in creating a sense of disassociation of self - the same thing that meditation does. It even affects the same regions of the brain as meditation. When used carefully, with therapeutic intent, it can be an effective treatment for depression.
Recreational use is sketchy, definitely. But the science is there for using it therapeutically.
But your assessment of its efficacy is not contradictory to DontHavePants observation. They didn't say it wasn't effective.
I have no dog in this fight, but any studies done on brain chemistry and psychological effects need to be taken with a grain of salt. We know so little about the brain and consciousness that most of the stuff we're trying and doing are educated guesses.
And random social media text posts need to be taken with a cargo ship's load worth of salt.
Nothing I said is in any contention with ketamine/depression studies.
This quote from you contradicts what you've just said.
It doesn't. I can speak to it's mode of action without speaking to it's reason of use or efficacy. It's highly effective. It's great at what it's used for. It also temporarily makes the user stupid and incapacitates them.
That isn't it's mode of action, at all.
It also doesn't make you stupid, it is a disassociative anesthetic so you lose touch, to varying degrees, of your senses. At high enough doses even your sense of hearing becomes strange and I would bet if my doc gave me more it would fail almost completely. That's not a place I want to go however.
Despite that, and appearing to be incapable of coordinated movement or speech, the mind is still active. Altered, yes. But active and intact. I am always aware of my partner in the room/bed with me, the dog checking things out, I just choose not to interact with them to continue exploring memories, or alien landscapes, or just turn off my mind, listen to the music, and let the drug work while the most fantastic and surreal images come and go.
I'm here today because of ketamine. Disinformation and pearl clutching threatens to reduce access to it, and could cost lives, speaking only of this one niche use.
I'm not trying to diminish anyone's experiences with ketamine, or reduce anyone's access to it, though I do think it's funny everyone thinks that some asshole on the internet has that ability.
Are you able to stand up when using ketamine? How about run? Could you tell me your personal details such as name/date/address? Could you tell me the time? Could you remember your mother's phone number? Could you take a bath? Could you safely use a knife? Could you melt into nothingness and lose all sense of self, physicality and emotion?...wait strike that last one. Of course you could.
Now we're at the point that we all realize dissociation is to become stupid and incapacitated. Anesthitized even?
Ahhhhh, so you did come back to say more dumb stuff. I literally baby sat a group of friends on the stuff two weekends ago. Sure, they said some amusing things, but at least 95% of what they said was perfectly coherent and made sense. As evidenced by one of them saying "you know you're getting old when you have more cos you're lower back starts to ache". By your description, that should not have been possible. Yet it was. Sure, you enter a k-hole and you're good for nothing, but most K experiences don't enter that and people can function fine enough on it - like most drugs the intensity of effect is dose dependent. But like I said in a previous comment, you seem to be stuck in the 1950s and their anti drugs hysteria.
Your friends were so stupid on ketamine that they needed a babysitter.
Let me just point out a few things. You could have said "in that case, all drugs make you stupid" which would have been totally valid. You could have said "at the dosage necessary to incapacitate someone, of course they would be stupid", which of course is valid.
The whole point of my very first comment was to poke at people who love ketamine, and also those who read studies about ketamine and proceed to spread it like gospel.
There isn't a recreational drug that exists that makes anyone temporarily smarter. They all make us temporarily more stupid. For some reason drug users get real uppity when you point that out, especially about their drug of choice. That's not to say that something can't be taken from the experience that helps someone, or that might inherently make them smarter or self aware. I was just simply stating that when on that drug, you are more stupid. I think that's a lesson that a lot of drug users should be more aware of.
I've seen a lot of dumb shit happen because someone was mislead about a drugs effects. Hell, I have some K in a stash right now, but let's not misguide people into thinking they will just be coherent floating brains. They may also be floppy dumb messes that may need babysitting for 45 minutes. Will they be just as smart afterward? Probably. But for those 45 minutes they are going to be stupid.
Good on you for being a trip sitter. You're good people. People deserve to try drugs in a safe manner and that's what leads to good experiences. Those good experiences are what those stupid people deserve.
I mean, that's one way to interpret it. The way I intended it was that they were smart enough to have a sober friend with them in case of issues and it also meant they had a sober ride home that wasn't gonna cost them a shit load in taxi/rideshare charges. Were all almost 40yo. We've learnt our limits. We respect them. We have fun. Hell, I've seen one guy balls deep into a 3 day MDMA binge jump onto his work laptop and legit solve a problem. To be fair to you, as he said himself "that was way harder than it should've been, and realistically I shoulda done it in half the time. But fuck. I did it". And I think he nailed it right there. Like, yes, drugs alter you you and they can do it significantly. But they don't all make you dumber. More impulsive, less guarded, all that shit. Sure. But they don't all make you dumb. People have literally had scientific breakthroughs that had stymied researchers for decades cos of drugs. Sure,the list isn't long, but it's happened pretty regularly.
I've ingested a ton of ketamine myself, so theres no pearl clutching here. I'll be back tomorrow to continue arguing semantics.
did you use if for medical purposes or fun times?
So you sound like someone with some experience using drugs (particularly those of psychedelic or hallucinatory nature), right?
So you would know that drugs effect everyone differently. Personally, I never abused ketamine, but I have k-holed a handful of times, and my personal experience was that it had a profound effect on me in many ways.
But that's just my personal experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anyway, those who know, know MXE (methoxetamine) was way better for that brief period of time before the supply permanently dried up.
You've never abused ketamine, but you've k-holed?
Ummm...?
I wouldn't consider k-holing abuse personally. A k-hole is a desired effect of the drug for many people.
Ketamine can be addictive though, and I would consider frequent/habitual use to be abuse.
Yeah, that's not abuse. If I was using it on a regular basis, then it would be abuse. I've never, personally, found it to be particularly addictive.
Your personal experiences are your own bud.
That's literally exactly what I said. Good job.
Again, you're not actually contradicting Pants, you're just rewording and massaging their snark.
You didn't though. You used a blanket statement. As evidenced by your use of the word "everything". Your entire initial comment reads as if it was written in the grip of anti drugs hysteria in the 1950s and shows none of the nuance you're now trying to claim it does.
You're also wrong on its mode of action, so you're not even speaking to that. It doesn't work by making the user "too stupid to conceptualize their own thoughts or realize where they are physically".
He said everything except "temporarily lobotomizing people" which was clearly hyperbole.
He then gave examples where the sedation provided by ketamine can be beneficial.
This guy gets it.
There are so many overly pedantic haters that recently joined Lemmy. Every post now is controversial as fuck judging by the downvoting going on.