this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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The impact on power plants should not be underestimated. This is a win, and hopefully we'll be able to ween ourselves off fossil fuels and coal more quickly if it hurts these power companies bottom line.
Hopefully this will also move into the private airplane business, and cruise line industry.
Cars will take more time, because we have to cycle the old fossil fuel engines for newer cars that just aren't cost effective right now. Not to mention, some people will want to keep their gas powered car.
Honestly?
I'd totally go on a sail and solar powered cruise line. That'd be cool as fuck.
My gas powered car is paid off, any electric car isn’t, and any electric car with equivalent space for my family and bimonthly Costco trips and equipment to make the ride comfortable would run me $50k. Guess which one I’m driving for the foreseeable future.
Nobody is talking about forcing you to get rid of your old car: they're talking about making new ones be electric, so that we see full replacement as people scrap old ones.
Re-read the comment I replied to and my own. I want an electric car, they’re just not economically feasible for most people, and will likely remain that way for the foreseeable future. People can’t afford electric cars with reasonable seating for a family and space for their stuff.
You can make cheap ones. The Chevy Bolt was just fine. It's that automakers decided giant trucks for the wealthy are more profitable, and that the rest of us have to live with used vehicles.
The Chevy Bolt is cheap and feels it. Read my other comment on it; I have driven one more than a few times, ridden in one even more often, and it’s absurdly bad compared to even a base level Mazda3 in interior quality. It honestly feels cheaper than my my first car, an early 90’s Toyota Tercel, let alone compared to a modern import. If the Bolt is the future of EVs, we’re doomed, because it’s not fun to drive and every moment in it is a reminder that it’s cheap for a reason. It may be better than the Prius C due to being an EV, but that’s not exactly a high bar to clear, and I’m pretty sure it will lose where it counts, customer satisfaction. I can’t imagine someone with the money to buy something better puts the money down for a Bolt and is happy with their decision after six or 12 months, let alone the decade plus that we all should be keeping our vehicles to defray the environmental cost of their construction.
That leaves people with limited financial options, the people forced to buy either a used ICE vehicle or the cheapest EV when their old car dies; you’ll probably recognize them as the working poor (and their ranks are growing thanks to runaway capitalism). If the solution is to force them into terrible vehicles, perfect; the Bolt should serve as a wonderful reminder that profits are valued above them at every step.
I agree that it is cheap. It's entirely possible for manufactures to do a lot better at that price point, but it's less profitable.
Right, and since profits are king, the affordable electric cars will stay terrible because an ICE is $1k or so to manufacture while an electric power train including battery is at least five times that in cost. When you look at a $27k car, tax incentives excluded (especially because some people will be unable to use them), the electric car has to be cheapened, every corner cut, or the profits just won’t be there.
Again, it’s dollar for dollar, when you sit in a $20k Mazda versus a Chevy Bolt that will cost the same if the full $7k tax incentive is realized, the quality difference is tangible. Until that’s addressed, there won’t be people wanting to buy that car.
Im curious, why are you comparing a sedan to a suv? Beyond being about the same cost upfront after tax credit, if still 8.5k cheaper over ten years than the smaller Mazda.
I also doubt most of its customers are that horrified by its quality, given as far as i could see its reviewed well by consumers.
I compared a sedan and SUV because they both will fit a family of four and their suitcases for roughly the same price.
I can only speak as somebody who has spent some real time in one, I’d never buy a Bolt. They’re well liked, but as the very cheapest electric vehicles, not just as vehicles. In other words, compared against actually good ICE or hybrid vehicles, the Bolt has zero appeal aside from being electric. That makes us a passable electric vehicle but an overall crappy car to drive. Also, for $850 a year I’d take the Mazda in a heartbeat. Sure, that’s a “privilege”, but it’s also a proven reliable, quality vehicle that will absolutely positively not feel like a tin can that rattles when you shut a door. If somebody spends real time in their vehicle, as I have at various points in my life, I wouldn’t take the Bolt.
They've been selling out the entire Bolt manufacturing capacity. So clearly people do want it
Do they, or is there a lack of an alternative in that niche? Again, I can only speak from my personal experience driving and riding in one; I’d choose pretty much anything else with four wheels.
There have been a few other low-cost models. Also all selling out.
They'll make them fancier if that stops happening
If your comparing price wise you should probably do it used to used, which while hard at the moment given most EVs are new enough that they haven’t made their way to the used market things will improve with time. Especially given the lower maintenance and longer lifespan of EVs.
I’m also sure your factoring the 7k subsidy and the fuel costs into this comparison already, given that if you keep your cars for a long time costing half to a third per mile driven is a pretty big deal, equating to a savings of about six hundred and fifty dollars a year. Between the both of those you should expect to be able to pay 15k more for an EV and still come out on top if you keep cars for a bit over ten years
Basically that the 30k new Bolt and Leaf are competing price wise against a 15k new suv, or at least they would be if there was any suv on the american market for under 25k.
Of course that higher up front cost isn’t nothing, it’s expensive to be poor after all, but it does factor into these things.
I can’t compare feel, but yes, cheap cars do tend to feel cheap, especially when there is still rather limited competition for the low end market and the Japanese pair continue to not even try. I don’t know what to tell you beyond the working poor will probably put up with it for the extra 10k in their pockets, like normal.
Well that or chevy gets swept away by the Koreans until it gets another bailout and then acts all confused, but i don’t think that’s the drivetrains fault.
The Chevy Bolt is big enough for the average family and starts at $27k before incentives.
A close relative of mine has one, so I can speak specifically to my problems with it. It’s a tin can and feels it every time you open or close a door, let alone when you use the interior compartments. It doesn’t have power nor heated seats and the manual adjustments are frustrating at best, and the cloth doesn’t clean easily from children’s snacks. Also, it makes a high pitched noise inside the cabin at low speeds that’s absolutely aggravating. Finally, the “trunk” is smaller even than another relative’s Mazda3 Hatch, even including the compartment underneath the main area in the Bolt. It cannot fit four carryon sized suitcases and maintain rear visibility.
None of those issues have anything whatsoever to do with it being a EV. It’s a GM product deep into the economy price bracket, and you’re complaining about a lack of power seats or cheap sounding door closure? It’s a cheap car, it’s no surprise that cheap cars lack in luxuries.
Being a cheap car is kind of the point though. There are family friendly 4 door EVs in most new car buyers’ price brackets, from cheap hatchbacks to the fastest super cars and almost everything in between.
Not all cheap cars lack in luxuries let alone normal things like space for luggage; bad cheap cars do which is why I keep harping on the Bolt in particular. There are good electric vehicles out there, I’m sure, they’re just not in every price range, as an average new car price of $40k is beyond what most people can actually afford when inflation’s been hammering their food and housing expenses. The Bolt’s niche, at roughly $20k after tax credits, means it’s competing with lightly used Civic/Corolla/Mazda3 vehicles, all three of which are much better cars overall, and have decades of reliability. If you can’t depend on a Bolt and it feels cheap when it works perfectly, what working class person is going to want one?
Now we are comparing used cars to new ones? It has always been the case that you get more for your money with a used car than a new one, it’s nothing new.
In any case, these are all just niggly complaints if I’m being honest. It’s far nicer and more spacious than the average family would choose in most of the world outside America. It’s a perfectly adequate car for most families.
We often see this straw man argument that standardizing on electric cars in the future will make it impossible for people to afford to drive. The Bolt shows there is a future for the economy segment with EVs.
You must have GM stock to love the Bolt this much, it’s unbelievable otherwise that somebody would invest so much energy in such a bad product. The Bolt is a terrible car compared to other cars, plain and simple. It’s barely passable to drive, has a history of rather fatal flaws (two recalls for fire seems like more than most people want), and it has almost no space for luggage/shopping. It works great for short trips in a city without kids in tow, assuming you define great as getting from Point A to B.
A Bolt is the Spirit Airlines of cars, cheapened at every level and miserable to experience, but sure, it could work. It’s an illusion of progress, and most of what it does efficiently could be replaced by electric bikes. For anything else, it’s a poor substitute for a good car, ICE or EV. Now, could there be a good EV in that niche? Absolutely, but it’s running up against competing interests, affordability for the 99% versus fair wages for the workers building the thing. It can’t be a great car, it’s too cheap and has too much money wrapped up in its powertrain to be great on its own merits, but it could be much, much better, inside and out.
It doesn’t need to feel so cheap, that’s the MBA set dictating the corner cutting to eke out every cent of profit. Like I said in another comment, my first car was a base model Tercel, so I have a good idea of what a car can feel like even when built on the cheap. The Bolt doesn’t even hit that level of quality, and a Tercel isn’t exactly a luxury vehicle. But don’t believe me, go test drive a base model Civic or Mazda3 and then a Bolt. You’ll immediately notice the difference in everything you touch and see inside, let alone when you open the trunk/hatch to see the available space. But hey, I’m just a guy ranting on the Internet, having driven hundreds of thousands of miles in Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, and oh, right, some very unfortunate time in a Bolt.
I want a better economy car that’s an EV; I’d love to have better options. The current offerings just aren’t there yet, and there’s little reason to think they will get there when the motivation is profit instead of the planet.
There are plenty of electric cars under $40k these days. And guess what? If the demand rises, then economy versions will be released.
I was able to get my EV for about 33k after trade in and some haggling. It made sense for our monthly cash flow because I was still paying on the gas car though.
Plenty of electric cars under $40k? Name five good ones, ones where they don’t rattle incessantly and when you shut the door you don’t feel surrounded by a sea of the cheapest plastics (offgassing the whole time naturally). I can tell you from personal experience the Bolt isn’t a good one. And just to be clear, my standard isn’t Lexus or Maybach, I’m comparing with Honda Accord/Toyota Camry/Mazda CX-5 for interior and overall quality.
I love this comment. It's like 'Yea, I want to help , but have you seen electric cars? Oh my gross! Oh well, come on kids, hope in the gas car, let me drive you to the crematorium.'
More like, “Hey kids, do you want to be in a vehicle that filled with plastics that happens to catch fire?”
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/recall-all-chevy-bolt-vehicles-fire-risk
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-important-chevrolet-bolt-recall-fire-risk
Electric vehicles could be good, the cheap ones , specifically the Bolt, are not.
I can't imagine stressing about a several years old resolved recall, lol, Jesus Christ.
It’s indicative of the quality, or lack thereof, or a Bolt. Imagine having a vehicle literally declared non-operational for that nonsense and how long some customers had to wait for a fix. That’s time they don’t get to use the car they paid for, and I doubt their bosses are going to blame GM when they can’t get to work on time. Yeah, I stress about a recall like that, a car you can’t use is worthless.
I'd guess I'd have to imagine it since that isn't what happened with those Bolt recalls.
My relative with the Bolt was literally warned to not drive it until they could get parts to deal with the seat belt fire (yes, that’s one of the two fire related recalls), which took almost a month. You tell me how that’s not a problem for, say, working people.
GM did not ask drivers to stop operating the vehicle. It was not part of the recall instructions. Another imaginary concern.
I can only relay what I was told by the owner. They were fortunate enough to have another vehicle, so they made it work for the time it was grounded, but go off, you clearly know what every owner of the hundreds of thousands of Bolts out there were told by every dealership. Since you’re omniscient, can you hook me up with the Powerball numbers for the next drawing?
No, actually, you can do much better than, charitably, mis-remembered hearsay. Especially considering how committed you seem to be to spreading misinformation. For example:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCRIT-22V930-9322.pdf
You can read the recall letter impacted owners got here, page 14, including the onerous instructions that owners schedule a service appointment. You'll see, or actually not see, any instruction that vehicles not be used.
"I had a bad experience with a single EV, so all of them must be bad."
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I continue to say there are probably good EVs out there, the Bolt isn’t one of them. That’s all I’ve ever said, and people keep interpreting that as an attack on EVs in general. I want an affordable EV with the usable space and interior quality of my 2010 Mazda3. Is that a condemnation of all EVs, and if so, what does that say about EVs?
In case this is an actually sincere question, Hyundai kona ev can be purchased for 30k range with federal and state incentives and is fine for 90% of commuting needs and has good range for longer trips. With a child and 65 lbs dog, it's been our primary/ only vehicle for a few years now and no real issues. Do I want a good electric van when one hits the market at a reasonable price? For sure. But if you actually want an ev for family use, there isn't much truly stopping you.
The Hyundai/Kia offerings look interesting but the nearest dealership is 40 miles away and that’s more than I can do to go test drive a car. How’s the interior, equivalent to a Honda at least?
It's pretty fine. Some areas are a bit cheaper build quality than I'd like but I've never really had any significant complaints. But I also have a relatively high tolerance--so long as it works and does its job, I'm good as far as cars go.
I don’t think of myself as picky, but large panel gaps and cheap materials like on an armrest or the seats themselves just really grate on me. When I bought my last vehicle, I test drove like 15 vehicles, and while I liked the economy of the Prius V, the places they cheaper out (no air vents for rear passengers for instance) stuck out like a sore thumb. Hopefully my next vehicle can be an EV, I just can’t square the circle of trading in a reliable, paid off car for a new EV with a monthly payment.