this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2023
517 points (97.3% liked)
Asklemmy
43818 readers
867 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy ๐
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It's also up to us not to fuck this up. Let's not turn this into a toxic hate-filled dystopia lol.
That will happen nonetheless, when more people start coming in. Its something that will just have to be managed.
On the other hand, I do hope that here on lemmy we will stop just kicking anybody with an opinion that we don't like. That will only cause echo chambers where everybody will repeat the same stupid opinions that will only get more extreme. We will have to listen to those that we don't agree with.
I'm sorry but no. I don't have to listen to Nazis. If they are allowed here, it will drive me and a lot of other people away. We had more than enough "free speech" experiments now. It always ended in these platforms being an insufferable cesspool of Nazis, conspiracy theorists, incels etc. and all sane people were driven away. It doesn't work. These people need to be deplatformed, that is the only way.
I respectfully disagree.
First of all, on Reddit I rarely ran into right wing extremists. Do you know who I ran into a LOT? Left wing extremists. That is what tends to happen when you start polarizing discussions (both sides) and then kick out one side. The other side just becomes an echo chamber.
Second of all, this is not a problem you can ignore. Its not as if these people just magically disappear into thin air once you ban them. You can't deplatform them because they'll just go to another place. Where will they go? To their own moderated places, which will allow much more extreme discussions, leading to more and more polarization and problems in the real world. I think part of the problem here is that we (collectively) stopped listening to people in minor disagreements, and instead of having reasoned arguments, just kicked these people out to the curb. I honestly think that that sort of behavior from the left side of the spectrum is what fueled US polarization which culminated in Donald Trump becoming president.
You may not want to have reasoned discussions with people who are more on the right side of your political spectrum, but you HAVE to. We all have to because if we don't, they will talk only amongst themselves and they will only fall deeper and deeper into their right wing pit. Have no illusion, the same goes for left wing extremism. Extremism on that end might still be milder, but its there alright.
I'd rather have a group of people with a few minor-and-controllable nutcases in it than a conform-with-the-rules group, and a group of dangerous terrorists outside that group.
There are examples where this was tried. It doesn't work. People who disagree with Nazis leave the platforms, so the result is the same.
The problem is that there are no Nazis. Nazi's stopped existing in 1945, anything after that are people that sympathize with some or all of its ideologies. The problem is that its a sliding scale and people these days are VERY trigger happy to call out NAZI! I've been called a Nazi on Reddit (and banned from multiple sub reddits) for literally arguing that I'm not sure how good an idea it is to give puberty blockers to kids that might be trans, specially because these blockers do have consequences later in life.
Great, now I'm a Nazi, apparently? Should I be banned now?
When IS a person a Nazi?
I've talked a LOT on reddit, I had over 130K karma over probably the same amount of messages. I don't recall talking to Nazi's much, if ever. I have had quite a few deep discussions with people on the far right part of the spectrum and it helped me a lot understanding them, where they come from, and why they have the ideas that they have. I call that progress. You can listen to somebody and politely agree to disagree.
What you are pushing for tends to end in censorship. Can't talk about naughty things now! Can't disagree with the masses! All look in the same direction! Don't dare to step out of line!
It also ends in situations where douchenozzles like Trump become president of the USA because the right feels like they no longer have a voice (which truthfully, is correct), so push back harder and extremer.
We MUST allow dissenting voices. Yes, if somebody scants "KILL THE JEWS!", you ban him of course. But if there is a conversation happening about, say, the "US bathroom issues" I think we should allow dissenting voices. As long as the conversations are respectful and thoughtful, the worst that could happen is progress.
You can theorize about semantics all you want, but don't try to gaslight someone who was physically attacked by actual, real Nazis, who describe themselves as Nazis and can't be seen as anything but Nazis.
TL;DR: You create neo-nazi's.
Nazi's are members of the Nazi party. Nazi's, like the party, no longer exists. What does exist are Neo-Nazi's. Semantics, perhaps, but when talking about "Nazi's", details become important. With that in mind, I wonder if you can tell a little more about who attacked you how?
In any case, I'm not theorizing nor gas lighting you. I'm talking about actual and serious problems that exist because of what you want.
I've been called a Nazi multiple times by, well frankly, by people like you. Why? Because I disagreed with them. Our disagreement here, for example, would be enough to call me a Nazi. I've been banned from multiple subreddits because of that. What happens here is that people with differing opinions get pushed away to places where they get pushed more and more in right extremist corners. What you want ends up in people getting more extremist. If you want to resolve that, if you want to avoid being attacked by neo-nazi's, then talk to people before they become extreme...
This sounds like a threat
If you've been banned specifically because of people thinking you're a nazi, and you're arguing getting banned will push people to farther extremes, brother thats not a good look.
Not at all meant as a threat, just pragmatic thinking. If you don't allow mild dissenting or disagreeing opinions, which happened and still happens at reddit, those people you push out will go to other places where they'll find much more extremist people.
You're creating echo chambers at both sides. your side will never have anyone disagreeing anymore because all that did are pushed out and so your side gets more extremist over time. The other guys went to other places where they are welcome but ochtend with much more extremist opinions and so get more extremist as well.
Pushing people out for minor disagreements is a big part of the problem. Heck, I think there is a good argument to be made about that behavior causing trump yo be elected. People being pushed out of normal discussions flock together in the crazy parts of town and cause much more mayhem that way.
And if you're saying you only block out Nazis, then next thing that happens is that people will say "you don't perfectly agree with me on every point? YOU NAZI, BEGONE!".
It doesn't solve anything. I'm not here to be comfortable with all opinions, I'm here to talk with people, have reasoned discussions, something which caused me to be banned from toi many reddit subs already.
And before you start calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you (you already claimed I'm threatening) I'm not. I'm a white guy married to a woman of a different color and race, I live in another country as a minority myself, I'm not perfectly straight, so I'd say I fall in all the popular groups du jour. I'm just another normal guy who -so far- has been trying to have a reasoned discussion about the pros of allowing people to raise disagreeing or dissenting voices.