this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
36 points (100.0% liked)
Asklemmy
43818 readers
1274 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- [email protected]: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_[email protected]~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Flying your country's flag soft implies that you like your country, liking your country soft implies that you support and enjoy the status quo of your country. Conservatives seek to preserve the status quo. Therefore, conservatives and supporters of the status quo will always have a greater connection to the flag than those who are marginalized in the same country.
Patriotism and nationalism have a strong association, independent of how people opposed to nationalism feel about it. Why would we want to adopt a symbol that is even loosely associated with nationalism or suggests contentness with the status quo if we want to significantly change the status quo?
I disagree progressives flying the flag enables the hate of the right. In fact, I feel the opposite; flying the flag normalizes nationalistic tendencies instead of making you look like an obsessed weirdo.
Wanted to add to this, a couple other reasons why progressive-minded people wouldn't want to fly the flag:
There's inherent colonial symbolism in the 13 stripes on the flag, and flying it also can be seen as a celebration of colonial conquest over native lands.
If liberals regularly fly the flag, leaving only left-wing people who dislike the US as the only people not flying the flag, not flying the flag will actively become a political statement, placing a target on their backs, and becoming a reason to antagonize people just living their lives.
The phenomena I describe is much broader than the US and the current time period. It has existed across time and cultures, implying that there are broader factors at play than the opinions and behaviors of contemporary US culture. Flag waving nationalism is damn near universal. Americans only differ by how universally people feel the need to wave the flag.
My greater point is that you can't change what the flag symbolizes by having different opinions and flying the flag. Symbols are just that: symbols. To change what the flag means you must either change what the US does or change the flag. Embracing national symbols only emboldens nationalism if your nation isn't diametrically opposed to nationalism.
This is quite literally true and always has been. You don't see flags representing the Lakota or Seneca nations anywhere, and the 13 stripes are a direct hat nod to the European colonization wiped them out. The state will not stop systematically repressing indigenous, black, or other marginalized peoples if progressives suddenly start identifying with the flag. It will just make progressives look supporters or useful idiots to that state oppression.
Why would I want to prevent right-wingers from taking sole ownership of something intended to represent a state with long history of right-wing violence, slavery, and military interventionism? They can have it. It's as perfect of a symbol for right-wingers as any other. Should we fly the swastika to reclaim it too?