this post was submitted on 06 Feb 2025
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I'm curious where a lot of those folks come from/what their backgrounds are. I assume like 50% are Russian bots, but of those who are real people, how'd they end up where they are in life/holding those opinions? I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.
I question the "Russian Bots" narrative pretty heavily, there's no evidence for that conspiracy theory nor would it make sense, Lemmy is too small to make an impact. Either way, I started reading Marxist theory a bit in college but more when I actually started working, and over the years I've read more theory and history.
I'm admittedly not well-versed in Marxism, beyond having the experience of, "Man, this shit looks good on paper!" But I would always take that a more communal-style communism route, so where I struggle is with the purported admiration of the Chinas and USSRs in the world. I suppose you might argue that my view is based on a misunderstanding, which I kind of get. But on a gut level, I have such a hostile feeling toward any authoritarian-style structure that my hang-up always comes back to that. Again, based on a very surface level understanding of what I presume to be a diverse group of views, which is probably part of the issue with simplifying it all.
I think a useful exercise would be to look at what, as you say, "looks good on paper." Where did you get that conception, from Marx, or people talking about Marx? Part of the Red Scare was blunting and twisting Marx, it wasn't just "Marx and Marxists eat babies" or overt misinformation easily dispelled, but often worked in subtle ways, and still does.
I am not going to turn this into a lecture on Marxism (unless you want that, I can do that for hours because I am a fucking nerd). However, I do want to point out that Marx's prediction for Communism was of a fully publicly owned and planned economy over the world, where everyone shared equal ownership with all of industry. He predicted this because he watched Capitalist industry get larger and larger over time, and competition become less and less feasible as barriers to entry got more expensive.
I think you have an idea of Marx in your head that envisions a horizontalist, decentralized economy, when Marx thought further centralization is a necessity of advancing industry in a more and more interconnected production process. We could spend days and years talking about what the PRC and former USSR gets right and wrong, but my point here is more about just how easy it is to misunderstand Marxism entirely from the get-go.
I suspect you're right. I have a list of books I still need to read on this stuff.
Cool! I also made a reading list linked on my profile you can check if you want to compare, but not super necessary.
I'll do that, thanks. I like challenging reads and have sadly misplaced my e-reader, so my to-read list is backing up a lot.
Sounds good! Feel free to ask any questions.
Earnest response:
spoiler
I was in middle school, just gaining political awareness at the time of the nato intervention in yugoslavia. I was in the US for that experience. The difference between what was said about the bombing campaign inside the US vs what I heard from my family outside made it clear to me that there's always two narratives at play. When 9/11 happened I was made extremely uncomfortable by the open jingoism, then with Iraq I was primed to distrust the WMD line. I got involved in anti-war protests, then I quickly became aware that democrats were not faithful opposition when it came to war. The Kerry campaign pitch was essentially just to run the war better than bush was. When I wrote my democratic senator/reps expressing opposition to the war I got boilerplate responses.
I pretty much only hung out with the punks and theater kids through high school because being opposed to the war would get most anyone else to respond with 'what are you a terrorist?' I was reading political theory at this point, but legitimately found it hard to engage with marx or lenin at the time because it was the end of history and all I could really see was that avenue being closed off entirely. I'd get lots of exposure to that sort of politics from listening to my grandfather rant though. While I wasn't really drawn to organizing at the time I was perfectly happy to go onto conservative forums and rile up/dunk on the fox news watchers.
What I did develop at a young age was a really critical eye for the media, it was jarring whenever I would travel to visit family, leaving America really felt like leaving a bubble. Not just leaving the rat race, but for example when not visiting touristy areas, if I was speaking in English I'd get people being like "oh you're American? why are so many people in prison there?". I still remember as a kid trying to wrap my head around just why so many people were in jail, the result was a deep disappointment in the US, and any politician upholding 'norms'.
At the same time as being totally disenchanted with the US I realized that I still needed to survive somehow, and living in the US gave me better options than anywhere else so I opted to stay. I knew I was trans at this point, not that I really had the words to properly describe the feeling, though I also felt that pretty much everyone I would interact with would be hostile to me if I expressed them, which made me avoid discussing it at all. I did know that I couldn't afford a prolonged encounter with the American medical system. I also hated the prospect of having to be the sickest patient in the mental ward just to be able to get medical support. I concluded that it just wasn't to be and instead I opted to repress and went to college. My degree selection based on a cold calculation of what degree that I could stand would make good money and graduated in time for '08 financial collapse. Putting off transition felt like a wise move as I then needed to move back in with my parents while looking for work.
I remember being actually hopeful that something might change after that and the occupy protests, only to be monumentally disappointed by Obama.
I was actually hopeful for Bernie too, it was nice to see what looked like the pendulum swinging left for a change. To then have whatever youthful energy there was so callously shut down to prop up the old guard democrat fossils really made it clear to me what side they were on. COVID also got me to to re-evaluate my life and political commitments. Organizing with my local anarchists was great for connecting with other trans people who were also COVID-concious, many of whom would probably also be considered tankies by lemmy users at this point. It also motivated me to read more theory, anarchist and marxist. Parenti was actually a great entrypoint for me on the marxist side, while Graeber was my original favorite on the anarchist side. I opted to start transitioning late in life when I finally had both financial independence and the social supports.
COVID also made it really clear to me that I couldn't count on the democrats being honest about something if they saw a political advantage in lying, that they would tolerate the final solution if it was on a long enough timescale. Gaza confirmed that realization. I could talk your ear off about that in greater detail, but this isn't the place for that.
I went on reddit for easy dopamine hits pretty much since the digg migration, but after october 7 I just kept getting banned repeatedly and that motivated me to finally move over to lemmy.ml and I've been here since.
Tldr
👍
I understand, I know that neoliberals have a very hard time recognizing the humanity of anyone outside of their own little bubble.
Why treat them as humans when you can act smug they didn't enjoy voting for a milquetoast capitalist who only listens to the rich?
Extremism, whatever route it takes, is a byproduct of social isolation. And extremist groups, whether they are nazis, religious fundamentalists, incels, etc., feed upon the people who are marginalized by a conformist society giving them a fictional explanation on "why society hates them": the white genocide, infedels, women are like animals.
I don't think that "tankies" are as extreme as the other I mentioned but I believe the base mechanism is the same.
Under what definition of “extremism” is this not a ridiculous statement? Becoming “extremist” is orthogonal to one’s level of social isolation or inclusion. How isolated were the Gazans on Oct. 7th or the prisoners in the Sobibor uprising?
I think it's either trolls or people who have realised how capitalism exploits them, but instead of becoming actual leftists, they just jumped to worshipping another oppressive system instead. Lemmy seems to be very US-centric, so I think the thought process for some has been:
So basically, not being able to understand nuance.
Its not about lack of nuance but more about deliberately being a useful idiot because not everyone has the patience of someone like cowbee. Let me translate your example:
Now its 2025. Dessalines is long dead and we can safely say the free people of Haiti deserved a better leader. But back in the 1800s I'd back Dessalines to the hilt because I'm carrying absolutely zero water for slavers.
Further listening: https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-02-the-north-korea-memory-hole
Thanks comrade 🫡
Just reading and watching the situation unfold. Whereas I can’t understand why someone is ok with the US lifting a ban on arming Nazis, and somehow I’m the asshole for just being aware of that.
You also get called a tankie on here for just pointing out that most of the Tiananmen Square claims have been debunked. Somehow I’m also an asshole for knowing the western media outlets did not claim violence from the CCP at the time, but changed the story in coordination with US intelligence. How am I in any way in the wrong just for knowing about US intelligence changing the narrative, and not going along with it? I didn’t fabricate these fucking news archives. Take it up with the Washington Post.
All of the tankie accusations amount to ‘how dare you know about that?!!’ or ‘they’re the good kind of Nazis!’