Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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But that's not women's fault, that's patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to "provide" and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that "providing" goal is impossible for a lot of us.
A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it's women's expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.
The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.
It's not their fault insomuch as they can't think for themselves, I'll agree with you there.
But the agreement stops when you blame the patriarchy over consumerism. No, this generation has been convinced to sell itself out to the lowest bidder. Average women are proud consumers that want to live like instagram models. Any kind of modesty is shunned in their social circles. It's drowned out by "look at this new thing I bought! Please praise me for spending money!"
The sex speaks for itself. Men have a ridiculously easy time getting laid if they have money, even if they're pieces of shit in every other way.
I should also note. The concept you are referring to as "they can't think for themselves" is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.
It's like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.
Isn't that culture in general? Not saying it doesn't apply to "the patriarchy", but this definition is a bit too wide, IMO.
Yeah it does! False consciousness is a very wide concept. There are particular oppressive ideologies that are deeply embedded in our culture that create these false consciousness. Capitalism and Patriarchy are just some of them. They have their own quirks, and then on top of that they interact with each other to create a sort of super culture that underlines everything we think, know and do. It is infact a very very wide definition.
The point is that you take that wide idea and then you narrow it down. You pick out specific ideologies that exist in that super culture, you deconstruct them. Find the contradictions within that oppressive ideology. You find the exact ideas, expectations and thoughts that stem from that ideology. You find the ways that other oppressive ideologies interact in specific ways with the one your deconstructing.
It's a very hard thing to do. But it's kinda like alcoholic rehab . First step is admitting that it is there. That we are all affected by these cultural forces and imbedded oppressive ideologies and doing your best to rip them apart and understand their effects on you personally.
It's very neat. I'm geeking out just talking about it. This fundamentally changed who I am as a person. I used to be a racist, homophobic, misogynist piece of shit but I always had this need to understand the world and myself. Thankfully that need and some very patient and loving friends slowly guided me out of that mind prison.
I hope I explained all of this well in a way that is understandable. I am genuinely just trying to explain this pretty complicated idea over text on a conversational way. Tone and such may come off as whack. Just take it all as I intended it. Genuine and with love.