MeanwhileOnGrad
"Oh, this is calamity! Calamity! Oh no, he's on the floor!"
Welcome to MoG!
Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
What is a Tankie?
Alternatively, a detailed blog post about Tankies.
(caution of biased source)
Basic Rules:
Sh.itjust.works Instance rules apply! If you are from other instances, please be mindful of the rules. — Basically, don't be a dick.
Hate-Speech — You should be familiar with this one already; practically all instances have the same rules on hate speech.
Apologia — (Using the Modern terminology for Apologia) No Defending, Denying, Justifying, Bolstering, or Differentiating authoritarian acts or endeavours, whether be a Pro-CCP viewpoint, Stalinism, Islamic Terrorism or any variation of Tankie Ideology.
Revisionism — No downplaying or denying atrocities past and present. Calling Tankies shills, foreign/federal agents, or bots also falls under this rule. Extremists exist. They are real. Do not call them shills or fake users as it handwaves their extremism.
Tankies can explain their views but may be criticised or attacked for them. Any slight infraction on the rules above will immediately earn a warning and possibly a ban.
Off-topic Discussion — Do not discuss unrelated topics to the point of derailing the thread. Stay focused on the direct content of the post as opposed to arguing.
You'll be warned if you're violating the instance and community rules. Continuing poor behaviour after being warned will result in a ban or removal of your comments. Bans typically only last 24 hours, but each subsequent infraction will double the amount. Depending on the content, the ban time may be increased. You may request an unban at any time.
view the rest of the comments
Unfortunately it does seem increasingly like the Ukraine government has used the war as an excuse to tighten its grip on power and tamp down on democracy. I hope these changes can be reversed but I’m not overly optimistic.
That doesn’t mean a Russian puppet government would be any better though.
Well I'm sure you have sources or examples right?
To be fair, it is hard to hold a proper democratic election with part of a country occupied. Either you hold an election in which people in those areas cant vote and while risking division during a time of crisis, or you dont hold an election and in doing so risk democratic backsliding. Im not really sure that there's a good answer to that situation
Not only is it "hard," it is spelled out in the UA constitution that this is what happens when there's a war going on in Ukraine.
Wow! Looked that up and seems you are exactly right, kicks in with a declaration of martial law.
Yup. So when you hear people hollering about how "Zelenskyy halted elections!" - it's because that's what the constitution demands.
Human rights and democracy are above the law. If the law contradicts them, then the law is wrong.
I think the term for the logical filling you have demonstrated is called "victim blaming".
You know what created the situation where Ukraine had to pause elections? Russia's invasion. You know when elections will resume in Ukraine? When Russia fucks off.
But, sure, blame Ukraine for that.
What a pointless comment. I’m not blaming them for being invaded, that’s absurd. They are responsible for their own actions. No more, no less.
What's the Kremlin like?
what "own actions" are they responsible for?
getting shot at????
I disagree. Ukraine does not have direct control over those territories. So it does not seem a major issue that people there cannot vote for a government that does not govern them.
If Ukraine is able to retake these territories then they can allow people to vote in the next election. If Ukraine retains or expands its democratic ideals then it would only be a short period where they would be controlled by a government they did not vote for.
I could see a case for postponing elections if the country was in such a total state of disarray that it was not practical to hold them. But it’s clear that this is not the case outside of the eastern front lines and occupied territories.
It's in their constitution to do this. They have to do it this way.
They could modify it or end martial law. They don’t have to.
It’s just a bad law, constitution or not.
But doing so will just give propaganda fodder for the occupying country
"See, your country doesn't care about you, come to our side blah blah blah"
It's a tight rope to walk for sure, but I haven't seen anything out of Ukraine to suggest they've fallen off it
As we can see, not holding elections is also creating propaganda for Russia and its defenders. I don’t think this is a major problem enough to deny people a voice in decision-making.
Says the Russian asset.
Propagandists gonna propagandize regardless. Stop blaming the victims.
Yeah that was my point… Nobody is blaming the victims but you’re saying they shouldn’t have a voice in their own government.
Why don't you spend all this energy you're putting into ignorant takes into criticizing the actual problem and aggressors here - Russia
So the invader only has to conquer the places that support their puppet candidate the least. Good job, you made it easier for them.
Try thinking things through next time
How has it tightened its grip on power? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know.
Lincoln did the same thing, for what it's worth, arresting people who published secessionist newspapers and detaining civilians without due process who he said were "dangerous to the public safety." What he said about it was that, in war people get murdered on a massive scale, property gets stolen, cities burn, all the rules go out the window. If that's what we're doing, we might as well do it and try to win.
I'm not saying I agree as pertains to Ukraine. Like I said I really don't know what has been happening with them. Ukraine has famously had a pretty corrupt government as all the post-Soviet states tended to do, and I am in favor of the upsetting story of them trying to replace it with something decent, all the while at the mercy of massive powers on all sides which don't have their best interests at heart.
Canceled elections and tamping down freedom of speech: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/18/world/europe/ukraine-press-freedom.html
War obviously poses challenges and some changes may be necessary but Lincoln did hold elections during the civil war and I believe it is perhaps the most important time for people’s voices to be heard, despite the challenges. The war is primarily confined to eastern Ukraine so I see no practical reason elections could not be held. Other than that they may not be in the interests of ruling powers.
Power always corrupts and wartime powers are no different.
I never said it was completely confined there, just primarily. I think contextually it should be clear that what I mean is that war has not affected the government or society away from the front so dramatically that elections could not be held.
I am aware of the law. But I think the law is wrong. Ukraine has never been a particularly democratic country so its laws were a product of that context, even before the war. They open the door to autocracy and should be changed.
Your last point isn’t relevant. They could and still should hold elections regardless of Russias intentions which they have no ability to bring about outside of their area of control.
You do understand law as a concept? Especially constitution as a basic law that can't be violated unless every other law becomes invalid?
As for not being particularly democratic that's either extremely uninformed or completely detached view. I would love to hear what is not particularly democratic about ukrainian state.
As for president and safety council being autocratic, and holding dictatorial power, that is the whole point of martial law and any kind of emergency powers that granted to elected or not elected officials during emergency.
I acknowledge that laws exist. I don’t respect or follow the bad ones. The laws were written, as in many countries, to prevent self governance by the people. This is always and everywhere the greatest fear of the powerful.
Your comment is self-contradictory. A dictatorship that governs with emergency powers and no elections is in no way democratic.
It’s clear from your comment that you think this kind of dictatorship is a good idea. I think you should defend this idea instead of acting confused about what I mean when you clearly understand what I’m talking about here.
I sincerely doubt that you don't follow "bad" laws. Dictatorial powers are granted as part of emergency, with conditions that must be met. Conditions that were explained earlier, again, you can't ignore laws like your country constitution (if there is one) unless the next step planned is dissolution of your nation.
My personal opinion on granting or not granting whatever powers are irrelevant. That's how laws work.
Your claims of there being a lack of democracy weren't explained, enlighten me. I can't understand your position on elections because you have a very warped idea what war means. At best there are multiple air raid alerts in every big city, at best every day hundreds of people are being either killed or being injured. Every industry is either completely destroyed or partially destroyed, absolute majority of critical infrastructure objects are at least partially destroyed. At least a million people are in armed forces with more than a half being on the front lines, they can't drop everything and go vote. Ballistic missile can arrive in 1-2 minutes after being detected, some can in less then a 1, and public events are usual r*ssian targets, you don't want your election start with multiple places being struck with ballistic missisles with cluster munition. Can you explain how to hold elections in this situation, the logistics of the operation and a purpose?
Hm. Interesting, thank you, I hadn't known they had cancelled the election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Ukrainian_presidential_election
The situation during the civil war was a little different. They didn't attempt to count votes from the "occupied" territories, meaning it was basically an election of the union states only, and almost all the still-alive voting population was either still at home, or deployed in the military and findable. Almost all the fighting and destruction was inside the CSA, not on union territory, so there wasn't the same massive scale of destruction and disruption in the union that Ukraine is under. The union cancelling elections would have been more like Russia cancelling elections because of the Ukraine war.
I'm not trying to debate about it, I just don't know much about it. The infringements on press freedoms sound pretty real. And, the CSA did have congressional elections during the war, although they didn't last long enough to have a second presidential election.
From the reporting that I see from Ukraine it's not actually an issue. Journalists (that aren't right-out Russian agents) aren't told what to write, or to not be critical, or to not ask tough questions, but to put reporting about military things on time-release and blur others. You don't want pictures out there that would allow the Russians to locate command centres and such.
Oh yes and you can't condone the invasion. Newsflash: Condoning crimes is a crime pretty much anywhere also in peace times, and believe it or not it's not legal to wage wars of aggression.
Another critical tool in the bully's toolbelt is to whine that the attacked person is being way unreasonable in how they're conducting themselves, in the defense.
And I am sure that it is pure coincidence that whatever press-freedom incidents are being played up and spun out as the corruption and hostility to democracy of the current Ukranian government, in consistently dishonestly half-true ways from any number of various scattered sources.