this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2024
96 points (96.2% liked)

Canada

7161 readers
259 users here now

What's going on Canada?



Communities


🍁 Meta


🗺️ Provinces / Territories


🏙️ Cities / Regions


🏒 SportsHockey

Football (NFL)

  • List of All Teams: unknown

Football (CFL)

  • List of All Teams: unknown

Baseball

Basketball

Soccer


💻 Universities


💵 Finance / Shopping


🗣️ Politics


🍁 Social & Culture


Rules

Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage:

https://lemmy.ca


founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 day ago (23 children)

That's not why Canada listed them as a terrorist organization.

We have actual allies exterminating entire ethnic groups, and we are supporting them. They are literally executing children at point blank range and burning them alive. How are they not labeled as terrorists and these are?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 19 hours ago

Because Canada stands with America in oil based supremacy at any cost.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I guess because they aren't bringing the terror here?

But Israel/IDF has indeed been found to probably have committed genocide. By agencies and systems in the UN. At this point it's kinda pedantic if it's called terrorism or not, because it's genocide.

And it wouldn't be quite accurate to say that Canada didn't do anything about this. There was suspension of arms sales after all, https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/joly-suspensions-analysis-1.7320990

Edit: It's totally reasonable to call for more action on top of this. Stopping arms exports is just a drop in the bucket compared to the horrors that are happening half a world away. But at least it's a start, however small.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I guess should have said "mostly suspended" - but wow, that's quite a glaring loophole.

In particular, there's no reporting requirements - so it's not even possible to tell how much of what got moved under the loophole, so we don't know if it was just a $60 drop in the bucket or if say the vast majority of arms exports are moving via the loophole now.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

Shit like this is why the leaders in Arab communities are refusing to even meet with Trudeau. It's become abundantly clear that a lot of progressives in our Parliament are only progressives when it's politically convenient to be.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

That might be a tad harsh - I'm sure that now progressive lawmakers have been made aware of the loophole by the news article that they are working on laws to fix it (previously they may have assumed that companies would just act in good faith in doing the right thing here, or failing that, that the US wouldn't send arms over to a country found to have plausibly committed genocide).

Alas, that process is quite slow, so I am currently putting my hopes on the lawsuit mentioned in your article. Hopefully the courts will decide to apply the brakes until a legislative fix can be made.

I hope I'm not being too optimistic here.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt personally. The only political leader who has actually said anything substantitive regarding Israel's actions was Singh. If you're a political figure and you can't even publicly condemn another countries war crimes and say that we won't stand for it, then to me you're complicit.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

But Israel/IDF has indeed been found to probably have committed genocide. By agencies and systems in the UN. At this point it’s kinda pedantic if it’s called terrorism or not, because it’s genocide.>

This is false. The former chair of the ICJ herself clarified the ruling. They only ruled that it is plausible that the rights of the Palestinian people under the Geneva Convention are at risk, which is a fancy way of saying the ICJ has jurisdiction to hear the case.

And those horrors you refer to were all brought about by Iranian terror proxies who declared war on Israel. Unfortunately civilians suffer the most in war.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

This is false. The former chair of the ICJ herself clarified the ruling.

Citation needed.

They only ruled that ... the ICJ has jurisdiction to hear the case.

That, ironically, is quite plausible. That sounds exactly like the sort of thing a court would say.

They only ruled that it is plausible that the rights of the Palestinian people under the Geneva Convention are at risk,

Meaning that they might not actually be at risk, just that it plausibly looks like so and so a deeper look is needed to indeed confirm that this is the case?

They only ruled that it is plausible that the rights of the Palestinian people under the Geneva Convention are at risk, which is a fancy way of saying the ICJ has jurisdiction to hear the case.

This seems a little too fancy. Why not just plainly say that "we find the ICJ has jurisdiction to hear the case because these allegations fall under our jurisdiction?" I wouldn't normally associate "Geneva violations" language with "court has jurisdiction" verbiage.

Anyways, assuming for the case of argument that all of the above is indeed correct and accurate (happy to give you the benefit of the doubt while you pull out the relevant source or citation) - it seems to me that even then the ICJ saw that there was a risk of irreparable harm to Palestinians, and it also found that Israel's interpretation of "wholly unfounded" and "morally repugnant" "false claims" was lacking or at least uncertain and unclear enough to warrant further investigation (instead of dismissing it outright). I.e. not a frivolous court case.

And those horrors you refer to were all brought about by Iranian terror proxies who declared war on Israel.

I mean, true in the sense that it sounded like there was almost a grand peace deal that would have made the Palestine Authority and Israel both happy, https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/09/israel-gaza-war-biden-netanyahu-peace-negotiations/679581/ until Hamas ruined it with their terrorist attack.

But the IDF is accountable for its own actions, and some of these seem to break both international and Israeli law. E.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html

While this might not have happened this year if Hamas hadn't done what it did last year, that doesn't absolve accountability on behalf of the IDF.

In fact, thinking this through leads to a ridiculous result. If Iran is directly accountable for when the IDF violates laws and human rights, that means Iran is responsible when the IDF violates laws and human rights. Which in turn means that Iran needs to stop the IDF from violating laws and human rights.. Which means making Iran powerful enough to stop the IDF. Which leads to the concept of arming Iran militarily until it's strong enough to plausibly defeat the IDF. Which I suspect would lead to Israelis suffering significantly more human rights violations themselves. (Which I think we can all agree is really bad).

No, the IDF has to be held accountable for the actions that the IDF takes.

Unfortunately civilians suffer the most in war.

On this, I think we're in complete agreement.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919 "Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court."

But the IDF is accountable for its own actions, and some of these seem to break both international and Israeli law> Yes, that is true. But no military can perpetrate a war without killing civilians. It's impossible. International law only requires that they take reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties. The fact that civilians have been killed in Gaza is not evidence of genocide, nor does it establish that Israel is morally wrong in their actions.

The one thing that people can't seem to grasp about Israel, because they are so blinded by their hatred and ideological brainwashing, is that Israelis don't want war. That will become clear in time, when the Iranian regime is eventually dealt with, the Abraham Accords move forward, and we enter a new era of peace in the Middle East. And maybe then, just maybe, all the Western anti-Zionists will say, "Hmm, I guess Israel wasn't the bad guy after all."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Nice, thank you for the reference - the BBC article is really helpful.

But the IDF is accountable for its own actions, and some of these seem to break both international and Israeli law
Yes, that is true.

And unfortunate. Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.

no military can perpetrate a war without killing civilians

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war. (As per https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perpetrate - perpetrate means to produce or bring about.) In fact I feel a major reason why Israel got away with so much nearer in time to Oct 2023 was because it was correctly and widely seen as the victim, rather than the perpetrator.

The fact that civilians have been killed in Gaza is not evidence of genocide,

Agree that the bar is higher. Will watch the SA case at the ICJ with interest.

nor does it establish that Israel is morally wrong in their actions.

I mean, strictly speaking, breaking the law doesn't establish that either. Otherwise, Martin Luther King would have been morally wrong for his civil disobedience in participating in sit-in protests against racism? So just because - as we both agree - the IDF broke the law, it does not follow that they're morally in the wrong?

Logically that's correct. But that just means we need to turn to another basis for arguing that some of the actions taken are morally wrong. Perhaps along the lines of failing to "take reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties."

Israelis don’t want war.

When I see the headlines from articles like https://time.com/7016741/israel-protests-netanyahu-six-hostages-deaths/ - yes, I can easily believe that.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.> I have no idea if any of their actions have broken the law. I was acknowledging that they are accountable for their behavior.

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war> It's figure of speech. In this context I was using it as a synonym for "carry out." But if you're implying that Israel started this war, that just has no basis in reality.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 hours ago

Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.
I was acknowledging that they are accountable for their behavior.

Well, thank you for at least acknowledging that.

I have no idea if any of their actions have broken the law.

In that case, allow me to provide some sources on this matter,

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-15/ty-article/.premium/idf-soldiers-attacked-military-police-at-gunpoint-for-arresting-comrades-at-sde-teiman/00000192-904d-d2db-ab97-dddd31dd0000

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-04/ty-article/.premium/prosecution-seeks-extended-custody-of-five-israeli-soldiers-suspected-of-sde-teiman-abuse/00000191-1caf-db97-a7df-fcffecc00000

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4630363-us-israeli-military-violated-human-rights/ (though this last one is about accusations that predate the current conflict)

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war
It’s figure of speech. In this context I was using it as a synonym for “carry out.”

Ok, clear on your meaning now.

But if you’re implying that Israel started this war, that just has no basis in reality.

No, got confused from the ambiguity above. I think we are agreed, that Hamas clearly started it first. The question in my mind now is, in retaliating against Hamas in self defense, if the IDF is going too fast and too hard - with the result that they're failing to minimize civilian casualties to the fullest extend possible.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Israel is the one routinely targeting civilian areas in both Palestine and Lebanon. This isn't a war, this an ethnic cleansing with war being used as the pretext.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

No, they are not targeting civilian areas. They are targeting weapons caches, rocket/missile launchers, and Hamas/Hezbollah operatives that are unfortunately located in civilian areas.

This isn't even close to ethnic cleansing.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Then why are so many civilians dying from their attacks? Why does Israel have a similar population density, but you don't see anywhere near the amount of civilian casualties when they are attacked? And before you say, no it isn't because of the Iron Dome. Plenty of the attacks have gotten through. It's just more often military targets and not civilian ones.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Are you serious?

Hamas deliberately puts their civilians in harm's way. That's why they have dug 500km of tunnels underneath cities. That's why they operate out of hospitals and schools. They want civilians to die and the more the better.

Israel, on the other hand, has spent billions to protect its citizens. And not just the Iron Dome either. There is a law in Israel that all new buildings and homes must be built with safe rooms and bomb shelters. They have a highly advanced early warning system so that civilians know to find shelter and exactly how much time they have to do so. Most of the rockets and missiles that have gotten through have been allowed to fall in open areas where they won't do damage.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

Israel, on the other hand, has spent billions to protect its citizens.

You just literally pointed out the distinction. Israel is privileged enough to have these kinds of systems. Palestine is not. And why is Palestine so poor, might you ask? What has happened to them for over 70 years where they can barely even defend themselves?

Also, the Hamas using the hospital as a base accusation has long been debunked.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

You really are completely oblivious. Is this what happens when you become brainwashed by Marxist crap?

First of all, do you know how much money Hamas has received in foreign aid to help the people of Gaza? Billions. And that doesn't include the support they get from Iran in the form of weapons and money. How the hell do you think they could afford to build a tunnel network larger than the London Underground? It has nothing to do with privilege, it's about how a civilized society chooses to spend its money compared to how a genocidal Islamist terror organization decides to spend its money. Have you not seen the palaces that Hamas leaders have in Qatar? Did you know that Arafat died a billionaire?

Second, Israel built a thriving successful nation from nothing through hard work, innovation, and a shared commitment to building a future for the Jewish people. They fought off genocidal enemies and survived and thrived against all odds. If you could put aside your hateful ideology for a minute you might appreciate it for the incredible success story it is.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

First of all, do you know how much money Hamas has received in foreign aid to help the people of Gaza?

I'm going to ask you to cite your sources here.

Second, Israel built a thriving successful nation from nothing through hard work, innovation, and a shared commitment to building a future for the Jewish people.

Yes, it totally had nothing to do with the tens of billions it receives in foreign aid, the extensive military support it also gets, and the land and resources they stole from the Palestinians. A lot of "hard work"there. Clearly.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099 https://www.prio.org/publications/12927

Most of Israel's support from the US has come in the past several decades. Israel was founded in 1947, fought a war with virtually no support from anyone, and then spent about 20 years building up the country from nothing. It didn't develop major political alliances until after the Six-Day War in 1967, when countries like the US realized Israel could prove to be a mutually beneficial ally.

I know it's hard to admit that a few hundred thousand Jewish refugees could actually build a country through their own hard work, but that's what happened. There's a reason why the Jewish people have survived and thrived against all odds, and it ain't because of handouts.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 hours ago

The article you provided literally talks about how Qatar is sending foreign aid to Gaza and Israel is allowing it since it bypassed Hamas. This just invalidates your point.

It absolutely was not thanks to hard work. Israel is a colonial settlement backed by billionaires and propped up by the American military, so they can use it as a proxy to exert their influence on the region. Pull this support away, and the country collapses.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Assuming you're referring to Israel, they are literally not doing any of this.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

The fact that you knew exactly who I was talking about is proof that they most likely are.

And there is proof.

And the executing part as well.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Yes, people burned to death. That happens in war. You might recall that Israeli civilians were deliberately burned to death on Oct 7, 2023, which is how this war started.

And the second link is not proof of anything, other than that people were found dead with their hands bound. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that the IDF executed those people.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

You might recall that Israeli civilians were deliberately burned to death on Oct 7, 2023, which is how this war started.

That was proven to be false.

And the second link is not proof of anything, other than that people were found dead with their hands bound. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that the IDF executed those people.

Yes, and why is there a lack of proof? Is it a coincidence that Israel has deliberately targeted journalists, threatened them, and harassed them? If only they were still alive to help us understand why a huge number of bound Palestinians were executed all while they are being invaded by a country known to commit huge human rights violations.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Did you even read that article? It nitpicks over specific stories but doesn't dispute claims about civilians burned alive.

You're clearly a lost cause. You have no critical thinking ability whatsoever, you just keep spitting back propaganda. Story after story, accusation after accusation, has been debunked as propaganda. The hospital bombing. The Flour Massacre. The famine. The children with sniper bullets in their skulls. All of it bullshit.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

In another story that spread a few weeks ago, United Hatzalah President Eli Beer told of a baby that was placed in an oven and burned to death. Beer made the remarks at a donors conference in the United States. The British newspaper The Daily Mail changed it from “baby” to “babies."

But this story also is not true. Ten-month-old Mila Cohen was murdered in the massacre, along with the baby still in the womb of her mother who died after her mother was shot on the way to hospital. The police have no evidence showing that other babies were killed. A source at United Hatzalah said a volunteer mistakenly interpreted a case at the Shura base and passed the inaccuracy on to Beer.

So this one was untrue.

The report above was later quoted on social media, often referenced as “dozens of beheaded babies,” though sometimes it was “burnt babies” or “hanged babies.” For example, the Foreign Ministry published an account by Col. Golan Vach from the Home Front Command, who said that in one house he found the bodies of eight burnt babies.

This one the story changed from burned to hanged. Which one was it?

There is no evidence that children from several families were murdered together, rendering inaccurate Netanyahu’s remark to U.S. President Joe Biden that Hamas terrorists “took dozens of children, tied them up, burned them and executed them.”

This one was incorrect as well.

Some of the incorrect descriptions were made by Zaka personnel; one repeatedly talked about 20 bound and burned bodies of children at a kibbutz.

Oh and another one.

So let me ask this question. If there are multiple incorrect stories by an organization known to lie and create false truths to justify their atrocities. Why would I believe any of them? On top of that, why would that excuse what they've been doing for the past year?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Are you actually suggesting Israel fabricated 10/7 to justify going to war with Hamas? Or do you admit it happened but you're just nitpicking over specific stories? Are you aware of the fact that terrorists wore GoPro cameras to record their atrocities, and even recorded their torture on the phones of their victims?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

The Israeli government was given intelligence that the Oct 7th attack was going to happen by their own agencies as well as foreign ones. They chose not to take it seriously. At best, they're incompetent. At worst, they're complicit.

And why are you bringing up what Hamas did or didn't do? We were talking about the atrocities Israel is committing.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

They definitely slipped up, that's for sure. But so suggest that they were complicit - that they allowed 10/7 to happen on purpose - is just insane. Like you're actually mentally ill.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 hours ago

How about you hold off on the personal attacks, huh? I didn't say anything over all the stupid tone deaf shit you've said ranging from genocide denial to trying to justifying a year of some of the worst human rights violations most people have seen.

Slip up or not (and this was a very big slip up). It's clear Netanyahu and his cronies are using this conflict to further their own agenda of expanding their little colony and stop him from being convicted like he was supposed to be right before the attack. How convenient for him and all those settler groups.

load more comments (20 replies)