this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2024
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Government Of Canada Labels Palestine Solidarity Organization As A Terrorist Entity (thenorthstar.media)
submitted 1 day ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Nice, thank you for the reference - the BBC article is really helpful.

But the IDF is accountable for its own actions, and some of these seem to break both international and Israeli law
Yes, that is true.

And unfortunate. Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.

no military can perpetrate a war without killing civilians

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war. (As per https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perpetrate - perpetrate means to produce or bring about.) In fact I feel a major reason why Israel got away with so much nearer in time to Oct 2023 was because it was correctly and widely seen as the victim, rather than the perpetrator.

The fact that civilians have been killed in Gaza is not evidence of genocide,

Agree that the bar is higher. Will watch the SA case at the ICJ with interest.

nor does it establish that Israel is morally wrong in their actions.

I mean, strictly speaking, breaking the law doesn't establish that either. Otherwise, Martin Luther King would have been morally wrong for his civil disobedience in participating in sit-in protests against racism? So just because - as we both agree - the IDF broke the law, it does not follow that they're morally in the wrong?

Logically that's correct. But that just means we need to turn to another basis for arguing that some of the actions taken are morally wrong. Perhaps along the lines of failing to "take reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties."

Israelis don’t want war.

When I see the headlines from articles like https://time.com/7016741/israel-protests-netanyahu-six-hostages-deaths/ - yes, I can easily believe that.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.> I have no idea if any of their actions have broken the law. I was acknowledging that they are accountable for their behavior.

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war> It's figure of speech. In this context I was using it as a synonym for "carry out." But if you're implying that Israel started this war, that just has no basis in reality.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.
I was acknowledging that they are accountable for their behavior.

Well, thank you for at least acknowledging that.

I have no idea if any of their actions have broken the law.

In that case, allow me to provide some sources on this matter,

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-15/ty-article/.premium/idf-soldiers-attacked-military-police-at-gunpoint-for-arresting-comrades-at-sde-teiman/00000192-904d-d2db-ab97-dddd31dd0000

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-04/ty-article/.premium/prosecution-seeks-extended-custody-of-five-israeli-soldiers-suspected-of-sde-teiman-abuse/00000191-1caf-db97-a7df-fcffecc00000

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4630363-us-israeli-military-violated-human-rights/ (though this last one is about accusations that predate the current conflict)

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war
It’s figure of speech. In this context I was using it as a synonym for “carry out.”

Ok, clear on your meaning now.

But if you’re implying that Israel started this war, that just has no basis in reality.

No, got confused from the ambiguity above. I think we are agreed, that Hamas clearly started it first. The question in my mind now is, in retaliating against Hamas in self defense, if the IDF is going too fast and too hard - with the result that they're failing to minimize civilian casualties to the fullest extend possible.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 51 minutes ago

I don't disagree that some soldiers engage in reprehensible behavior. That's pretty standard in war. But that wasn't what I have in mind when people say things like "Israel is committing war crimes." That has a much different connotation to it.

Oh, and I realized later that I chose the wrong word. I actually meant to say 'prosecute' rather than 'perpetrate'. My bad.

The question in my mind now is, in retaliating against Hamas in self defense, if the IDF is going too fast and too hard - with the result that they’re failing to minimize civilian casualties to the fullest extend possible.> That is absolutely a valid question. But most people don't pose it as a question. They think they are experts on warfare and can make a judgment about the morality of the war based on photos of destroyed buildings or abstract death toll numbers. And let's face it, most people who are critical of the war are staunchly anti-Israel and don't think Israel should have responded at all. Many people also don't understand the big picture. They think this war is just, as you suggest, retaliation for 10/7. But it isn't. If it were, it would have been more like 2014 - quick, a couple thousand dead, move on.

The attack on 10/7 made Israel realize that it can no longer tolerate genocidal enemies on its borders. The approach to Hamas and Hezbollah had always been containment - Israel can tolerate the occasional rocket attack or one-off terror attack, as long as that's it. But 10/7 was a wake-up call and Israel has decided they can't be tolerated anymore. But even more than that, it's about moving towards a new Middle East. Sinwar decided to pull off this attack when he did because he wanted to put a stop to the Abraham Accords. His hope was that the rest of the Islamist world would join in and fully destroy Israel, but if they didn't do that at least the moderate Muslim countries would see how evil Israel is and abandon the Accords to side with their radical brothers. Israel sees an opportunity here to seriously weaken the Iranian regime, which will allow the Accords to proceed. I truly believe we are seeing history being made right now. This war will ultimately usher in a new era of peace in the Middle East.