this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2024
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Critics say the US rushed to evacuate its citizens in Israel last year. For Lebanon, the response has been much slower.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

At first I really wanted to say "good, now they are treated the same as the Lebanese people living alongside them" but no, that definitely isn't "good" by any real measure of this word. I hope this whole tragedy will stop soon.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (22 children)

It won't stop until either Israel is disarmed or there is a complete change of people in charge of Israel and criminals like Netanyahu, his entire government and IDF commanders are sent to prison.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That latter option won't cause much change. Israel is, as a state and as a people, ideologically poisoned. They need something on the level of the denazification of Germany before you can hope for any change.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I am not disagreeing with you but you need to start somewhere. Sending Netanyahu, his government and senior IDF officers to prison for war crimes would send shock waves and could be a trigger of wider changes.

Ideally, I would like to see Northern Ireland power sharing solution in Palestine/Israel where each office is shared equally between Israelis and Palestinians. That however in my view can only follow after justice for the victims is achieved first and the perpetrators are in prison.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Honestly, I don't think justice for Palestinians is likely. As I see it, peace is inevitable but moderately far at the pace we're going, but justice would require a perceived violation of Israel's integrity that Palestinians will never have the bargaining power to demand. It'd be throwing a wrench into a peace process that will likely be reluctant and fragile already. Justice would be nice to have as an addon, but Palestinians will likely choose to take the fastest route towards human rights, which will be a two-state solution where Palestinians make some concessions but gain a state with real sovereignty. If something drastically changes justice might become possible, but in my thinking it'll be Palestinians, not Israelis, making concessions to make peace possible a la the Oslo Accords.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

... or all of Radical Islam admits the cost is too high and gives up their pointless hate.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Only Nazi's think hating genocide is pointless.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It is the Sith that speak in absolutes.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Oh yeah, cause only a little bit of genocide is fine‽‽

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Don't you think that feelings of victims hating the perpetrators are completely justified?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That's not the point. Forgiveness to avoid more tragedy is.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

In times of “peace”, the Israeli boot was still heavy on their neck.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

If only there were peaceful ways to get help that would almost have certainly garnered a lot more sympathy than resorting to terrorism...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

They tried peaceful protests and the Israeli military opened fire on them. They went to the UN for help and Israel called it “diplomatic terrorism” and put sanctions on Palestinians. What alternatives are there?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So, your solution is for the Palestinians to shut up and die? Nice, real peaceful

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

You said it, not me, but continuing to propagate violence only makes your solution the only viable one. Food for thought.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Israel has only ever responded to peaceful protests with lethal violence

When peaceful resistance is made impossible, violent revolution is inevitable

You can't expect people subjected to systematic violence and dehumanization for generations to not fight back for their own humanity and human rights

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

fight back for their own humanity and human rights

If only that was what they were fighting for.

When peaceful resistance is made impossible, violent revolution is inevitable

Hasn't been made impossible, just costly. Still less costly than resorting to terrorism. What is the body count now? More or less than projected when Hamas was deciding to 10/7? Any closer to victory? Let me know when reality sinks in.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That is exactly what they are fighting for. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, because it is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate founded on, and ever continuing, ethnic cleansing. Apartheid is the reality.

Settlements

Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.

The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

One or Two State Solution

The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.

  • Avi Shlaim

How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.

During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.

In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago (2 children)

No, it's not. Let's imagine a future world where to settle the conflict Israel agrees to withdraw to the green line, endorse a fully UN recognized and supported independent Palestinian nation, pay reparations to Palestine, aid in its rebuilding if permitted, and sign a 100 year peace treaty with all adjacent nations. Accepting this hypothetical, would Israel be safe? Why or why not?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Withdrawing to the Green Line is impossible now with the settlements dividing the West Bank into hundreds of isolated enclaves. You cannot forcibly displace the over half a million settlers.

This is exactly why multiple Israeli Historians have discussed how the realities of the Apartheid and Settlements have made any actual Two-State solution not viable. If you read any of those three links, they discuss exactly that.

Zionism, with its Settler Colonialism for an Ethnostate, is incompatible with coexistance and equality.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

I mean I'm not sure why you only value Israeli security in this arrangement, but presumably yes they would be. At least nobody would be launching rocket attacks.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Israel shoots into crowds of peaceful protestors in Palestine and has for years.

Israeli Snipers have shot and killed on foreign journalists for years at these events.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

There are, in fact, none. That's why Hamas managed to gain the Palestinian cause a lot of sympathy over the last 20 years while the PLO did absolutely fucking nothing.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Pointless hate? These people are subject to Israeli Apartheid and acts of ethnic cleansing. Daily. What part of fighting that is pointless?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I get what you're saying. It frustrates me that anyone thinks citizenship matters when it comes to civilians getting bombed.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

I mean morally it doesn't, but it should matter for the US that it's citizens are getting bombed. More than just a moral failure, America not acting to protect those citizens indicates its failure as a state. It's very much worth pointing out.