this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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The devs have some problematic views, mainly transphobic and misogynistic.
Is this because they used "he" instead of "they" in the build instructions? ... They changed that and acknowledged the mistake. Surely that's enough. It's the fucking build instructions. I think we can probably find it in our hearts to forgive them.
[edit] Just in case people think I'm joking. I'm not. As far as I'm aware, the critical incident that that has resulted in people calling Ladybird devs anti-trans is that they wrote 'he' instead of 'they' in the build instructions. That's what caused the original outrage. And as far as I'm aware, there have been no other incidents. But please, if there is something of substance that I'm not aware of, post about it here.
To be clear, nobody was outraged by the devs using gendered language. The outrage was because they rejected multiple PRs to correct it under the guise of it being "political".
That's literally it. People are getting angry over unsubstantiated information for 0 reason
The problem was more the fact that the devs viewed using anything other than 'he' as political, not the presence of gendered language itself. The devs themselves made a big deal about changing it. The way I see it, it's not even about trans people. How about just women? Is including women in software developent considered political? One would hope not, but here we are...
I wouldn't read too much into it. Using "he" instead of "it" is a mistake that a person might make if English is not their first language. It's pretty easy to imagine that someone working on a browser would not be interesting in messing around with the pronouns in their build instructions. They made an error, and they didn't think the error was important (which in itself was another error). But it is fixed now. Surely no harm done. They were not actively trying to impede anyone's progress or deny anyone's rights, or even say anything negative about anyone at all. They simply made a mistake in their use of pronouns in their build instructions. The mistake is now fixed. And although its fair to take it as a 'warning' that maybe there are objectionable views lurking in there, it certainly is not evidence of such views. I really don't think it's fair to hang this mistake over them. I'm sure that pretty much everyone in this thread has made worse mistakes throughout their lives. I know I certainly have.
I get the mistake. Wouldn't even call it one tbh, just an oversight. But when someone points it out normally one doesn't reply with "don't force your political views onto me" as if non male devs was some weird "woke" concept. A simple "whoops, missed that" would have been perfectly fine and everyone would've moved on. With that said, having followed the whole debacle I can say it could have been handled better by both sides.
Also, the use of AI-generated images on their website.
So?
For many small project is AI/copied images or no images at all.
When you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist to do imagery for your website. You go online to copy something or nowadays you can use AI to wrap it up. It's a tool at people's disposition like any other.
And before anyone comes talking about copyright laws... shall I present them my 10 TB hard drive of pirated media? Human culture is to be shared, not gatekeeped.
On the site I see like, one stock footage of a plant, one of a ladybird and some rando abstract graphics. What are you guys talking about here? Am I out of date? Should I ask for raise? (I'm not an artist but SW engineer, so probably not.)
What's wrong with that?
For one, AI datasets often break copyright law, frequently appropriating from artists. Executives are also trying to use it to eliminate the jobs of artists, and I feel it’s wrong to try and obsolete something people love doing.
In addition, they take a lot of power, not helping in the way of the needed changes to follow climate goals.
Clarification: Copyright laws can be annoying, and I don’t always agree with them. However, it also protects smaller artists. I think there are many cases where piracy is totally fine, though, like if a company vaults an animated streaming show and gets rid of all other ways to watch it.
Interesting. I am an artist, but I find it helps me make better art. Faster too.
But all my work is copyleft and I give zero shits about so-called "copyright infringement"
"It doesn't affect me, so if it affects you, fuck you, I don't give a fuck."
Nah, fuck people who try lock up information in copyrights without copyleft.
Normal people boycotting AI models will not stop executives from being hostile to artists.
Especially people who would have otherwise not paid for art.
No, they will just hire artists who know how to use AI too
oh noooooo not the copyright infringement!
I fail to see how is traing AI on publicly available images hurting small artists?
You don't have to write if you don't have time, link to explanation is good for me.
I basically use generated images in places that would not have any ilustrations before. There is no budget. When I have money for an artist I hire an artist.
I do break copyright law every single day of my life. And so far the only harm I've done is avoiding Disney a free pass to kill my wife.
Copyright law is bad. Sharing is caring.
Also I've make AI images with Stable Diffusion self hosted on my N100 server that takes way less energy than a normal computer being turned on for hours using Photoshop, so I saved the world by doing AI images instead of manually painting them.
Such accusations should really be followed by a source.
Not really an example for transphobia, but rejecting gender-neutral language in documentation is a red flag.
This was resolved and the PR was merged
No, it wasn't. You might say that the issue was sidestepped, because it says "it", rather than "they", now.
I guess it was an overreaction by mastodon, though. Even if I understand the initial criticism.
'It' is gender neutral so it was resolved
You claimed the PR was merged.
A PR fixing all those issues was merged.
They used "they" when referring to a person, and "it" when referring to a process (the author used "he" when referring to a process calling another process, when he should have used "it.")
https://todon.eu/@ljrk/112717109457167571
Jumping to transphobic and misogynistic for not wanting to use inclusive language in some repo documentation is a big jump. He didn't ever dead named anyone or refuse to use some person preferred pronoums. Its just not wanting to use inclusive language on documentation. Most, if not all, documentation I have ever read in my life don't use the newest trend of inclusive language.
By they way accusations were written it seemed like devs were actually exposing hate speech or something like that.
Let's not be like that, ok? At least I choose not be like that. You can destroy people lives with such accusations over basically nothing, be better.
I know that we are near Americans elections as it always makes the whole internet jumping, and throwing knives to find "the enemy". But it could be as simple as inclusive language might be confusing for non english speakers, or might the trend change over time and it's just a bother to keep updating with the lastest trend. Do you know how many versions of inclusive language did we have in my language? We started using ell@s, then ellxs, then ellos y ellas, then elles, then ellos, ellas y elles. It's too volatile and little to be that mad over it. Specially when there's people out there who truly hate anyone who is not a cis str male and is doing true hate speech over that.
If there's more evidence of devs being evil, I will aknowledge it. But for such a little inconsequential thing (again it's not even being against someone chosen pronoums, it's just general documentation) I refuse to spread hate towards other human being.
I've seen some inclusive tech docs in which they (ha!) use "she" instead of "he" or "they." I thought that was cool.
Are people writing "she" instead of "they" misogynistic and transphobic too?
There's no such thing as "reverse racism", "misandry", etc. That's not how systemic oppression works.
Right, "reverse racism" and "misandry" are just plain ol' prejudice.
I guess it's up to you whether you think being prejudice is only bad if you belong to the group systemically in power, or if you think being prejudice against someone for the circumstances of their birth is bad regardless of either party's systemic stature, but we should be correct in our use of language.
I also try to use the feminine as neutral instead of masculine. -Note: I'm Spanish so our language is heavily gendered- Mostly because I think that sounds better than the trend of using a newly introduced neutral gender that sounds terrible because Spanish language never had neutral.
Also if someone gets angry for that I have always the reply "now you know a little on how women fell during all story"
But still, neutral and inclusive language is still too new and far away from normalization to get mad at people on how they use it or not use. And if you are not deadnaming or deadgendering (is that a word?) you are not really hurting anyone.
It almost like a bot is posting this sentence every time SerenityOS is mentioned.
Using "he" insted of "they" is not enough to call someone transphobic or misogynistic. It's like you become fascist and are targeting people for one different opinion. Which is not even true.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
Are you trying to tell me that Ladybird inadvertently referring to a computer process 'he' instead of 'it' is not a high priority problem for transgender people? What could possibly be worse? :p
(But seriously though. I find it really weird that people are still upset at Ladybird about this. It makes me wonder if there's some social manipulation going on. Like, is anyone actually upset about this, or is it just an excuse to attack the devs?)
It was changed to they later, to the lead dev, in german they/them is a neopronoun, and "he" is gender neutral is those situations, i assume he thought it was the same in english
So do you have any evidence for this instead of just dropping it with no source?
This Lemmy thread is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.
Meh, that just killed my interest in the project. I was really looking forward to their first release. Now I don’t care anymore.
Don't put all all Ladybird devs in the same basket, there's currently more than 1000 contributors.
Ok, Andreas Kling said some untasteful things a few years ago when it was mostly his project, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the whole project for this reason now.
Like what?
Genuinely interested in knowing what he’s said.
I couldnt really care less about my chefs personal view as long as the meal is ok.
You'd be comfortable eating food prepared by a Nazi? I sure as hell wouldn't.