To clarify, the pictured poster Caroline Kwan is an ally, not a TERF. The TERFs referred to in the title are the ones ‘protecting a very specific idea of what a woman is’
this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2024
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Yes. I think that this is the concern of everyone who is genuinely interested in fair competition. While I'm sure that some people are triggered ( in both directions ) by the transgender debate.
I mentioned in another thread that I think the simple solution to this is to not define divisions by gender, but to simply measure testosterone and have a high-T "open" division and a low-T division. This is where the perceived competitive advantage lies and sidesteps the whole gender issue entirely.
While sensible, is T really the only factor at play here? Once you get into the science where do you draw the line?
Realistically it probably depends on the sport. Y chromosomes, being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in utero (unless one is resistant or unresponsive to the hormone), being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in puberty and maintaining certain levels of testosterone all do things to the body than could effect performance and that's all still mostly just focused on the one hormone. How much each of those things has an impact (if any) is going to depend entirely on the nature of the sport in question.
Should Brittney Griner be tested for testosterone and then forced to play in the NBA if it's too high?
You can't tell how high someone is by measuring testosterone. Maybe you were thinking of the Toblerone test.
Cute weed joke considering it landed her in a horrific Russian prison as a queer woman, but also, I didn't say she was too high.
The WNBA is still part of the NBA. She's been playing in the NBA
You know what I mean.
What's funny is that is THE issue we're discussing - misogyny in sports. That the NBA in your mind defaults to "Real Men's Basketball^TM" and women have this little side denominator with their girl basketball.... like no. Be exact if you don't want to be sexist. The NBA is both the men's and women's basketball associations.
What you MEANT was whether Britney should change to the men's division of the NBA.
...or I don't watch basketball and just didn't know that.
Nah, it must be that I hate women.
What do you think the letters in "NBA" stand for?
Interesting apology for your accidental misogyny. Kinda looks like you do hate women.
I know you really want to get angry at someone who doesn't know about basketball and thought that the two groups were "NBA" for men and "WNBA" for women, but that's literally how I have always heard those two divisions named. So call me as hateful as you like, but the truth is I have no idea what to call the men's league now. I've never seen anyone call it MNBA anywhere. Certainly not the press.
Right, because of overwhelming sexism in sports. I don't "hate" you or feel any emotion towards you. I'm pointing out how sexism in sports isn't just the Olympics, it's so pervasive we even see it in things like the colloquial use of the term 'NBA.' If someone is concerned about bigotry in sports, then wouldn't they want to examine other areas? Don't you think - as an ostensible ally - that that's weird too?
I've been accidentally misogynistic too, because we are raised in a society that have given us propaganda to be misogynistic. It's worth it to self examine and apologize when that happens. No one is an angel. Grow up, be humble, and learn.
And your second sentence proves you didn't actually read my post:
What I said:
What you responded:
Plus, I specifically said I had no idea what to call the men's league now and you didn't tell me.
Let me know when you actually read my comment and respond to what I actually said and not what you pretended I said. No wonder you decide people are misogynists when you don't properly read their comments.
Your first sentence called me angry. I was responding that I don’t hate you or feel any other emotion to you (such as anger). Because you said I was angry and you were using the word hateful and appear to project a bit. So again, I feel :| about you. Me: 😐
You call them the men's NBA. That's pretty clear as we both have referenced it as such. Here I am saying it in my second comment to you:
Wow, it wasn't accidental misogyny then, huh? Like had you known, you would've just done it the same anyway. That's why you lack remorse and are trying to make this combative and paint me in a negative light - it's not about women's rights, it's about your ego and looking like you're so smart on these issues you're above criticism. Cool. I'm sorry I said you were doing it on accident? Like go back and read the comment chain - you're way out of line here if you actually care about women.
You show me a major sport news source that calls them "the men's NBA."
Because I can't find one.
This is sounding like you're just making something up in order to call someone a misogynist.
Well, the thing is, find me an article proposing a player move from one division to the other as you were doing, first.
You said Britney should join the NBA. She's already in the NBA. See how stupid that sounds?
You're doing a good job calling yourself out as a misogynist at this point.
No. I don't see how stupid it sounds since everyone, except maybe you, knew what I was talking about. The men's division is simply called the NBA everywhere I look. I can't help that it's both the entire league's name and just the name of the men's league as well.
Basically you're criticizing me for not using a term that no one, save maybe you, uses.
Again, that is the name of the men's league. That is not my fault, it's theirs. It's not anti-feminism to use the proper names of things even if those names are sexist.
Yes, it is. That's why we changed verbiage like fireman to firefighter. Because it's sexist. And it was sexist BEFORE people were asked to change the verbiage. That's how systemic sexism works - it's all sexist and you must be the radical change demanding progress. That you want to be a status quo limp dick is on you.
Again- that is the name of the league. That is not my fault.
It's also not my fault that the women's league of the PGA is the LPGA and the men's league is the PGA.
And by your logic, every single person, male or female, who calls the men's league of the NBA "the NBA" is a sexist.
Incidentally, this includes Brittney Griner.
― Brittney Griner, Coming Home
Wow, Brittney Griner really hates women, doesn't she?
Sure, that is a sexist use of the term even when women use it. This is Feminism 101. Eg "Just Pearly Things" espouses anti-feminist rhetoric despite being a woman herself.
Again, the greater criticism is systemic sexism in sports including the Olympics and NBA. If you are opposed to this (obviously you aren't), then you would emphasize gender equity in terminology regarding the NBA.
Whether others do it too, fails to disprove my criticism because that IS my point - pervasive sexism in sports. Including with you as an individual.
Your ego isn't relevant here. Like who cares about if yet another random person on a forum is a boring misogynist who cant understand even basic Feminist theory? That's like all of you. That's expected. My point is to be someone who disrupts that. That you are part of the status quo is fine and expected. Keep holding onto calling it the NBA and pretending you care about women.
You will certainly cause a lot of "disruption" by berating a stranger for calling the NBA the NBA in a random thread on Lemmy. The revolution has begun and you've already won!
That doesn't erase your misogyny.
Or Brittney Griner's misogyny. Not only did she do the exact same thing I did, she published it in a book.
Does anyone hate women more than Brittney Griner?
I would consider her more a victim
She did exactly the same thing I did, except she published it in a book. By your own logic, she's a misogynist.
I can't help your logic.
Are you a woman?
She's a victim because she's a women. You're a perpetrator because you're a man. Within the patriarchal system.
Why does that matter?
Women are not being misogynistic when they call the men's team "The NBA" but men are? How does that even work?
Because of the patriarchy. That's why Feminism exists. When a woman within a patriarchy uses misogynistic terms, she's a victim. When a man does it, he's a perpetrator. That's also why women were legally forgiven for reactive violence but men were punished for using the same methods and it was not considered reactive.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Hughes
That was in the 80s. Spousal rape was legal in many states then. How is this news to you? How uneducated are you?
Sorry... because spousal rape was legal in the 1980s in many states, Brittney Griner is a victim when she calls the men's team "The NBA" in her book?
You are making absolutely no sense.
Read the part about victim/perpetrator and patriarchy again. I know you can connect these 3 dots, buddy.
No, I really can't. I have no idea what any of that has to do with her calling the name of the men's team by the actual name of the men's team.
You must think she's pretty stupid.
Well, then we're done here if you can't understand me and I can't make my meaning any simpler.
You've already stated you don't understand my message, so stop suggesting what I think. You don't know, you've already said.
No, I don't think she's stupid. That's a "you" thing.
Do you like being abusive to women? Why else would you make up a strawman like that?
Sorry, you think she's oppressed when she calls the men's team by its actual name because marital rape was legal before she was born. You're just implying she's stupid by not knowing what name to call the men's team. My mistake.
I don't appreciate your violence and aggression towards women, including myself.
What violence? What aggression? As far as I can tell, the only aggressive person here has been the one calling me names.
Gaslighting.
Fine. Please quote my violence.
And what of high testosterone people who are completely testosterone insensitive? Those are the women who have Y chromosomes