this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2024
683 points (98.6% liked)
NonCredibleDefense
6648 readers
916 users here now
A community for your defence shitposting needs
Rules
1. Be nice
Do not make personal attacks against each other, call for violence against anyone, or intentionally antagonize people in the comment sections.
2. Explain incorrect defense articles and takes
If you want to post a non-credible take, it must be from a "credible" source (news article, politician, or military leader) and must have a comment laying out exactly why it's non-credible. Low-hanging fruit such as random Twitter and YouTube comments belong in the Matrix chat.
3. Content must be relevant
Posts must be about military hardware or international security/defense. This is not the page to fawn over Youtube personalities, simp over political leaders, or discuss other areas of international policy.
4. No racism / hatespeech
No slurs. No advocating for the killing of people or insulting them based on physical, religious, or ideological traits.
5. No politics
We don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Stalinist, Baathist, or some other hot mess. Leave it at the door. This applies to comments as well.
6. No seriousposting
We don't want your uncut war footage, fundraisers, credible news articles, or other such things. The world is already serious enough as it is.
7. No classified material
Classified ‘western’ information is off limits regardless of how "open source" and "easy to find" it is.
8. Source artwork
If you use somebody's art in your post or as your post, the OP must provide a direct link to the art's source in the comment section, or a good reason why this was not possible (such as the artist deleting their account). The source should be a place that the artist themselves uploaded the art. A booru is not a source. A watermark is not a source.
9. No low-effort posts
No egregiously low effort posts. E.g. screenshots, recent reposts, simple reaction & template memes, and images with the punchline in the title. Put these in weekly Matrix chat instead.
10. Don't get us banned
No brigading or harassing other communities. Do not post memes with a "haha people that I hate died… haha" punchline or violating the sh.itjust.works rules (below). This includes content illegal in Canada.
11. No misinformation
NCD exists to make fun of misinformation, not to spread it. Make outlandish claims, but if your take doesn’t show signs of satire or exaggeration it will be removed. Misleading content may result in a ban. Regardless of source, don’t post obvious propaganda or fake news. Double-check facts and don't be an idiot.
Join our Matrix chatroom
Other communities you may be interested in
Banner made by u/Fertility18
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The US is planning for a new tank roundabout 2030. While right now it notionally is going to be an Abrams derivative, it is almost certainly going to be a completely overhauled new design and not a retrofit of existing tanks like what has been happening to Abrams.
Just something to point out to people who complain about the U.S. gifting stocks of vehicles to Ukraine. The U.S. was planning to get rid of them anyway.
The F-35 is an expensive program, and has undeniably had cost overruns, but from some of the poking around it seems the issues have also been exaggerated or different issues have been conflated, so without doing a deep dive, it is hard to say if the program is worth the bang or not.
The f-35 has no peer, from a us perspective every dollar spent being ahead is a win.
I suppose the question is really if the dollars are being spent in the most efficient way to get the result. I don't know, because that's complicated and probably needs more digging than I can do for an NCD comment. I do know that much of the discussion is muddled by the three models of F35 all essentially being their own subprograms. Which makes it hard to follow certain news articles or critiques when they jump from model to model to make their points.
If it makes you feel better, the package to modernize A-10's costs more per plane than a brand-new F-35. The F-35 has also become fairly cheap to maintain per flight hour over the past couple of years due to economies of scale. It's now comparable to the F-16 in that regard.
Also, the controls and avionics are being adopted in the upgraded F-15s that will be produced soon
I'm team anti-A-10 for sure. The only reason that thing is still around is because the big gun is so thought terminatingly cool that it short circuits peoples' ability to be rational. There's an embarrassing Congressional hearing about retiring A-10s and a Senator (McCain I think) was arguing against the data with "But if big gun plane go away, where will big gun be?"
I suspected, vaguely, that a lot of F35 costs would trend down now that the R&D was done, and there is production ramping up.
How dare you speak such heresy against big gun in an NCD thread!
NCD has been long time A-10 haters.
The f-35 project is over budget and chock full of stupid expenses.
It still remains worth every penny for the US given it is a beyond peer platform, so is the f-22.
At the end of the day being able to win without question will almost always be worth the cost even if it was more than necessary.
Stick with f22
F-22 isn't in production anymore and it would be very expensive to start up production again. Much of the capacity to produce F-22 has been taken up by other programs such as F-35 meaning that they would need new capacity.
They actually had the opportunity to produce more F-22s with the Japanese government offering to buy and put forward a lot of money to produce more, but the US didn't see the need for more of an air superiority platform
F-22 specializes in Air Superiority or clearing the skies. It wasn't made for air to ground (even though it can do it today) In Afghanistan, there wasn't a need for more air superiority
Makes more sense, thank you
The US keeps the F-22 to itself already, but the F-35 is basically the NATO multirole fighter jet so the US has plenty of those too.
the vast majority of materiel we've sent to ukraine thus far has been old pre-modernization stock, or older, modernized stock in the case of some of the abrams i believe. It's literally just shifting some budget to procurement to get us new stuff, while shipping some of our older kit to be used in battle, which is productive. There is almost no downside in us doing this, aside from the fact that we have to ship it to ukraine, which kinda sucks.
the F35 has been incredibly expensive thus far, but produced in significant numbers and fielded for a similar amount of time as something like the f16 it will completely absolve it's development costs over time. It's also important to remember that the f-35 is quite literally the most advanced air warfare platform that exists right now, which kind of follows the price tag.
90% of the complaints about the f35 on the internet have been "it bad at dog fighting" and "it expensive" and, that's about it. As for dog fighting, it's literally not designed to dogfight, so it should be no surprise that it's not very good at it.
If the F35 ever needs to win a dogfight, we’d probably be in WW3 anyway.
if the f35 enters a dogfight, the other fighter is probably already fucked. I can't imagine that would ever be a concern of yours, as an f35 pilot, especially with all of the fancy link tech they have.
Yeah you’re thinking along the same lines I was. If the situation ever occurred that an F-35 was in close combat with an enemy aircraft, shit has gone very sideways.
Though you’re also right that with the interconnected platform of the thing, in reality the dogfighting F-35 would just have to distract the enemy for a moment while somebody dozens of miles away fires a missile.
yeah, i also wouldn't be surprised if f22 in the position of potential resistance would be escorted by fighters as well.
If you're trying to target any sort of lock on an f35 that isn't pure vision based targeting, you're pretty SOL unless the pilot can't fumble with the switches correctly lol.
I watched a Perun slideshow ages ago which at least touched on production / export of the F-35 and how economies of scale bring down per unit price significantly over time.
Economy of scale almost always does. Part of something to dig into is if a projected lifetime program cost accurately bakes that in. It seems intuitive that people against the program will do everything they can to minimize the effect in order to pump up the projected cost, while supporters will do the opposite and give unrealistically optimistic costs.
I don't know specifically if that has happened with F-35 discussion, but I always suspect such manipulation as a baseline.
Are you referring to the M10 Booker or the M1E3? The M10 is it's own design, while the M1E3 (which should become the M1A3 on adoption) is a refresh of the Abrams, and it's not an either/or.
If you look up The Chieftain on Youtube, he's speculating the M1E3 will focus on integrating all of the add-on modules that have become standardized of the past couple of decades. This will likely reduce the weight of the tank from a whopping 72 tons to make it possible to address future threats while keeping the overall weight low enough to cross bridges.
Some people are speculating that the M1E3 will get an auto-loader, but the couple of tons those weigh is significantly more than a hyperactive 18yo, so we'll see how that works out
I was referring to the M1E3. My point was that it has so many goals to hit that it seems likely not going to be able to be refurbishments of existing M1s, but completely new builds. Therefore existing M1s like those going to Ukraine were destined for retirement anyway. This is something to bring up for people who have been decrying the "waste" of equipment being sent there. Much of it is nearing the end of the life cycle anyway.
(And the Army assures me that the M10 is not a tank! )