this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024
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Did you like... miss this part?
Their internal policies attack everyone, including me, regardless of my skin colour. I'm an immigrant too, and face multiple problems just by being the wrong nationality
It's too easy to blame racism for that which can be explained by overworked officials having to deal with hundreds of thousands of immigrants from every corner of the globe just trying to get ahead
Okay.
The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones. Please don't try to apply one to the other, it's a bad take.
I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic, but it doesn't have to do with skin color or with racism. Albanians, Romanians, balcan people in general suffered a lot of discrimination (and to some extent still do) as there were huge migratory waves in the '90s, and they are all white, just to make an example.
I would say it partially has to do with race (in the sense of skin tone). Depending on where you are in Europe. In very "white" northern countries, just having brown skin can easily get you lumped in with all other people with brown skin, regardless of ethnicity or place of origin. Reactionaries will call you a filthy immigrant all the same, even if you're born here. But in southern Italy, the natives are often not easily distinguishable from middle easterners or northern Africa anyways, so discrimination is mostly of national origin, language, and overall cultural identity.
But both will discriminate against eastern Europeans.
I think you do have a point, and I would say it also depends a lot. Even more, this shows how little it makes sense to talk about "in Europe" as if it's a uniform thing.
Immigration policies are completely different and many countries have also completely different histories. Take France for example and see how their colonial past made them paradoxically more multicultural than other countries, where black people are maybe at 1/2 generations max (with all the consequences).
I would say that now discrimination against Eastern Europe has toned down a lot, which is...about time.
Sure is.
This is what you've been responding to this entire time:
To anyone reading this, this is textbook red herring fallacy. He's changed it to 'xenophobia and racism are totally different' and then went mask-off with "In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different."
Sure is what...? Sure is a uniform thing (Europe)?
Also no, I have been responding against comments that specifically made a point about European policies being racist.
Also what mask? What the hell are you talking about, I am trying to explain to a stubborn american who can't accept the world being a little different from their own country that different countries have different issues.
By saying they're xenophobic. Racism is xenophobic. It's a root word we use for people who're against people who don't look/sound/whatever like they do. Racism is a specific target of that, but is still xenophobic. Being an elevated grammar nazi doesn't mean it's somehow better. "We don't specifically hate black people, we hate non-white people." Like congrats, your racism-apologism remains.
And I remain a stubborn Canadian.
Yes, but the kind of xenophobia which is embodied in immigration policies in EU is not based on race - hence, it's not racist. People are hated just fine for being poor and for simply wanting to come here from somewhere else. Whether they are "white" (assuming there is such thing, especially in Europe) or not the difference is not relevant in this context. Refugees were treated terribly when they were from Balcans in the same way as they are let die today in the Mediterranean.
This is wrong on so many levels:
Yes, acknowledging that different parts of the world have different problems, while still acknowledging them as problems is an apology for the problem.
Well, let's assume I was referring to America as a continent in the same way as you refer to "all over the place in Europe" as "in Germany" ;)
Are you doing a semantic argument about this, or...? Sure people from the Balkans can be 'white', but how the fuck does that mean there's no racism involved? Because sometimes rich white people also target white minorities? What the fuck is this take?
What? What even is this argument? We're a global society, people move around constantly.
What are these takes, honestly? It's not racist, it's just about their... being not white? (Or being from a different land)
Yes, if you wish. The difference between xenophobia and racism. If there is no racial motivation and there are extensive demonstrations of discrimination against people of "same race" (you minimize with "sometimes", but this is not sometimes, balcan migrations were The Migrations until 20 years ago), then what's the point of calling it racism?
And? This has literally NOTHING to do with what I said. In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different. There are different minorities, in different amount, with completely different societal issues, history etc. Reading all the world though the lens of american society just doesn't work.
If you don't get the difference between racism and xenophobia, consult a dictionary. They are two words with 2 different meanings. The general discrimination of "other" people has to do with protecting your wealth (or tradition, culture, etc.) and with classism.
The movements are basically nonexistent. Have you read your own article? Have you read the part where in the 4 (out of 27?) countries studied there were completely different issues pushed and dynamics happening (look at Poland vs Italy)?
Also the article is from 2021, and mentions that the movements is at the beginning. Is the movement still active? Are the issues the same as the main BLM?
You really think that googling "blm in Europe" and posting the first (and only) article you find is a gotcha? Jfc..
How is that relevant? The same fucking issue was protested all over the place. Hell, even my fellow punks are still at it.
The fight is the same, the location is the difference.
All over the place -> links article mentioning protests in Germany.
I really don't know how to be clearer than this:
There are commonalities, but it's very different. You are only taking Germany, where the battles are different from France, where they are different from Italy, and where in general these have to do with immigration and handling of refugees. In US a lot has to do with systemic racism within the society. They are two different things. Of course there are also racist people in Europe, no shit. The point is that racism is not institutionalized in the same way as it is in US. Since the conversation initially was about immigration policies, not random people, then this matters a lot.
Cool so you're saying my problems as an immigrant don't matter
No, I'm not. Cool strawman though.
Yanks are fucking weird
It's just not your day/week/etc is it? I don't think I've ever seen someone shoot 0.000 in reality, that's impressive. (I'm Canadian.)
Tabarnak, ce n'est tout simplement pas votre jour/semaine/etc. n'est-ce pas? Je ne pense pas que j'ai jamais vu quelqu'un tirer 0.000 en réalité, c'est impressionnant. Putain, les anglos sont lents. (Je suis Canadien.)