Initiateofthevoid

No, they haven't always been extremely greedy and selfish. All social animals strike a balance between self-interest and group-interest, and humans are no different.

Some humans have always been extremely greedy and selfish. And some of those humans have always been charismatic and persuasive. And many other humans are not equipped to differentiate between emotionally persuasive and right. Well-intentioned humans will often connect themselves to the wrong people or ideas.

That's not really their fault. We're repurposing evolution's creations for things they weren't built to do. We're trying to build empathy and connection with people that are chronologically, geographically, and/or psychologically distant from us.

And unfortunately we're trying to do that while a handful of us try to sever those connections and build physical and metaphorical barriers between us for their own self-interest.

Most of us struggle with the ability to feel empathy and connection with our own future selves. We often choose instant gratification over personal benefit, we often choose to forego temporary burdens in the present at the foreseen expense of finding greater burdens in the future.

That's not greed or self-interest. That's the opposite of self-interest. That's just the burden of the rising ape. But it's no reason to lose hope, and it's no reason to stop trying.

The most important proof that humans aren't all greedy and selfish is that people are still trying to do better. We are still trying to build better connections, even as others try to tear them apart.

I am describing its original purpose in the sense of prayer's original purpose in psychology and sociology.

One can learn lessons from religious practices without becoming religious in the process.

Besides prayer in general, take another look at the step:

... improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Do you know what that is? Look at it as an athiest, and imagine what purpose that step serves.

Seeking to understood God and his will? That's not - as many would put it - a human trying to communicate with a Sky Dad.

That's a human trying to understand his own Coherent Extrapolated Volition: "our wish if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were, had grown up farther together; where the extrapolation converges rather than diverges, where our wishes cohere rather than interfere; extrapolated as we wish that extrapolated, interpreted as we wish that interpreted"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_artificial_intelligence

When a human makes a gesture and a sound on cue, they're usually engaging in in-group signalling. But when a human prays and meditates on finding God's Will for them, they are trying to imagine their own desires and needs from the standpoint of a superior being. One with more information, a greater mind, a greater moral compass. They are trying to make themselves better by imagining the ways they could be better.

Athiests do this too, they just call it cognitive behavioral therapy and moral philosophy.

But you don't see how it's easy to rewrite something without losing its original purpose and value? How the step can serve the exact same psychological niche for an athiest as it does for a thiest, without actually changing the cognitive and emotional processes they need to undergo for sobriety or self-improvement?

Aside from the obvious (Trump being a dangerous radical, to put it mildly) has anything changed in the way influence is bought and sold

The world's richest man did a nazi salute on stage, in front of at least 3 of the other richest men in the world who all showed up to support the incoming administration.

The owners of Twitter, Meta, Amazon, and most recently Tiktok with the "thanks Trump!" obvious power play have all quite openly kissed the ring and bent the knee.

This is very far off from previous years. The wealthiest of the wealthy are making public displays of loyalty to a man who has flagrantly profitted off of the office for four years straight while actively making life worse for everyone except the rich.

Now he flagrantly profitted off of the office again before he was even inaugurated by launching a cryptocurrency, and his first actions in office are all directly and obviously against the best interests of the people but custom-designed for the well-known interests of wealthy conservative idealogues.

Yes, this is new. And yes, this is very, very, bad. Was America an oligarchy playing dress-up as a democratic republic? Yes. Were there massive donors pulling strings behind the scenes? Absolutely. Were politicians and lobbyists enjoying a revolving door of public and private sector benefits and making bank on book deals? All true.

But now the masks are off, and the worst and wealthiest have taken control with a smile and a laugh. They aren't playing the world's biggest and stupidest game of Monopoly. They have the Commander in Chief of the Military with all the checks and balances intentionally removed, so at the very least they're playing the world's worst game of Risk.

They aren't going to make money off of book deals. They will make money off of wholesale looting and dismantling the government, and they'll blame the inevitable economic and societal problems on us, on immigrants, on un-American citizens, and they'll do it in broad daylight on 5th avenue.

That's bad.

But to an atheist, the lines are in no way hazy between prayer and meditation.

This is not a true statement. But if you make a simple change, it becomes true.

But to me, the lines are in no way hazy between prayer and meditation.

Don't assume you speak for everyone. You don't.

Feel free to explore the countless - countless - examples of mindfulness and meditation scattered throughout almost every spiritual and religious practice from western natives to eastern cultures to polytheistic pantheons to - yes- Abrahamic religions.

Bow your head, make some noise. Raise your head, make some noise. Wash your hands. Eat this meal, share it with your neighbor. Speak your gratitude for the food. Speak your gratitude for your life, for your health, for your family. Speak your gratitude for your neighbor. Wish them peace and good fortune. Sing this song. Smell this incense. Listen to this music.

Stand, and think about what you want. Speak these desires to yourself, to your leader, to the universe. Sit, and listen to the sound of nothing. Kneel, and think about what you need. Speak these needs out loud. Share them with your neighbors. Hear their needs. Bear your burdens together.

Too many people think religion is nothing more than a plague. In truth it is nothing more than a tool. Yes, one that was and is often used for great evil. But still just a tool.

Modern spiritualism, neurology, philosophy, psychology - they all point toward the conclusion that religion in all its forms served a number of useful purposes for the development of the human community and the maintenance of the human psyche. It's not necessary, nor is it always good. In fact in the modern day it's often bad.

But that doesn't change the fact that it was probably an inevitable part of apes climbing down from the trees, and it's not hard to imagine why people still find a use for it.

Step 11 makes sense if you understand that it is about meditation and mindfulness.

An athiest and a thiest can benefit from the exact same cognitive and emotional processes and walk away with a completely different understanding of why it works.

An athiest can practice mindfulness, self-awareness, and meditation, with or without external guidance, and walk away feeling better and more capable of managing their mental and emotional labors. They often do so with the belief that meditation helps clear their mind, center their existence, or rebalances their neurochemistry.

A thiest can practice mindfulness, self-awareness, and meditation, with or without external guidance, and walk away feeling better and more capable of managing their mental and emotional labors. They often do so with the belief that meditation helps align their thoughts with God's, centers their existence, or rebalances the burdens on their immortal soul.

Both an athiest and a thiest can use repetitive mantras, sensory cues (music, incense, etc), instructors, calls-and-responses, group and individual sessions, etc.

Humans often reinvent the wheel a thousand times over and call it something new. The lines are hazy between prayer and meditation, between sermon and self-affirmation, between faith and zen.

With advanced neuroscience and psychology, we can rediscover things that were pretty obvious in hindsight: humans feel better when they surround themselves with a supportive social structure where they feel safe. These support structures are easily built around displays of community cohesion - where everyone knows the same lines, the same songs, the same cues to sit up, sit down, bow your head, kneel forward. The same cues to slide to the left, slide to the right, criss cross, clap your hands. Humans like to move as one, and speak as one, because when they do, they feel as one. They feel better when they feel connected. And they often feel better when they meditate and clear their mind, allowing a private or shared experience to take their thoughts away.

Now, in the modern day, you can take those ideas and run away with it. You can build communities that feel safe because they are safe, not because they feel safe from an artifically constructed common ground. You can play music and go to therapy. You can speak to a doctor and spend time with friends. You can find people with which you can sit in a circle and talk openly about your problems. It often helps if you find people who share those same problems.

Don't do the easy thing, and let athiesm be the thing that divides you from your fellow humans. Do the hard thing, and try to find the things that connect you. You're more alike than you think.

From a quick ddg -

AA Version: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Practical Version: We started meditating.

Throughout this process, you’ll discover – if you haven’t already – that none of these steps exists in a vacuum. They all impact each other and are impacted by the others. This is particularly true for step eleven. The ultimate goal of this step is to engage regularly in the practice of mindfulness, which has been demonstrated time and again to benefit multiple areas of one’s mental health. Being mindful means being consciously aware of something (usually breath, bodily sensations, or thoughts) without judgment or resistance. The best way to practice this is through meditation, but it can be practiced throughout the day as well. I recommend utilizing both for optimal results.

Source: https://aaagnostica.org/2020/03/29/staying-sober-without-god-practical-step-eleven/

You don't have to substitute "God" directly in the steps to make them work for you. There are plenty of ways to use the ideas of the program without being limited by its theistic roots.

Of course AA works because it serves as group therapy. That should be fairly obvious to anyone who's ever heard of the concept. But the most important step in any therapeutic approach is acknowledging hard truths. That is the most important part of AA, as well.

Half the steps are devoted to honestly acknowledging our flaws and mistakes, owning them, addressing them, and making amends wherever possible. That is what these pardon refusers did here, and the world would be a better place if more people had their courage.

It isn't by necessity a religious program, though I freely acknowledge its theistic roots, and the fact that many are religious and do rely on deity as higher power.

But the reason these people were capable of this bravery is stated in the article and is specifically not their piety - it's their honesty.

"Step 4: Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves"

"Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."

The most important lesson to be learned in AA has nothing to do with God and everything to do with addressing falsehoods - the lies people tell themselves and others to justify their behavior and to excuse their actions.

Through time, habit, and conscious effort and will, these people have primed their minds to be willing to accept a fundamentally difficult truth - that what we think and what we feel can be false. That the things we tell ourselves, the things we tell others, and the things we do can all be wrong.

We all have a responsibility to face those truths with courage and transparency. We have a responsibility to own our flaws and mistakes and make amends where possible. That is the guiding truth of AA. It all started with God, but it ends with the individual, and how they face those truths.

Then you're not actually advocating for change. If you have no interest in changing minds then you have no interest in any meaningful difference in the future. Besides, the consent has been manufactured and the horses have been lead to a poisoned pool.

The apathetic dismissal of people as helpless - the belief that they are, individually and as a whole, incapable of change or redemption or worse, unworthy of it - is a small but meaningful part of the machine that has altered reality in front of our very eyes.

We appear to be in one of many pivotal moments in history, where economics and politics and technology all tip the dominoes that are human lives toward an entirely new and irreversible state.

Hard times tend to meet demagogues and easy answers, but they also tend to force people to come together and face hard truths. I'm not saying you personally can save or change them all - perhaps not even save any. But there are plenty of good, ignorant people that will have opportunities to learn some terrible lessons very soon.

Correct! One of the most important tools we need to obtain, the most important weapon we need to arm yourself, isn't obvious, or simple, or easy.

It's Messaging.

Want to spend your time bitter? Apathetic? "I-told-you-so"?

I don't blame you.

But you're not actually working towards a solution. If all you have to say is "I told you so," or "what's the point?" or "everything's fucked" - I get it. But you're not contributing to the conversation any more than the people in this comic have been for the last how many years. You're not helping any more than they were.

We need messaging. We need to be willing to fight these battles. Not fighting the embittered trolls, but spreading truth. Sharing solutions. Making plans. Fighting this. Apathy. Pointlessness. Accelerationism.

Spread free platforms. Spread free ideas. Have meaningful conversations with your friends and families and coworkers. Try again, and keep trying. In little steps, in great acts. Don't let the shock paralyze you, the size overwhelm you. Don't get washed away by the flood of hate. This is the second best time to act. Your opportunities are growing by the minute.

Life is about to get very, very hard for many people. Many of the obvious targets will suffer, but it's pretty clear that nobody is "safe". Even the poster boys are under threat of retribution for stepping out of line. And everyone, everyone is facing the inevitable economic downturn that is speeding toward us.

But hardship shakes beliefs. It changes minds. Things will become personal for even the most detached, apathetic, or privileged. And when politics become personal all bets are off.

But don't bother if you're not going to try. Really, really try. Think about yourself, and the world, and the person you're talking to, and really try to make them see.

Take - and make - your opportunities to change minds. Don't be afraid, but be careful. Don't be polite for the sake of politeness, but be kind, be considerate, even be gentle when you think it will help, but don't be polite.

Whatever they can say to you can't compare to what is being done to you or about to be done to everybody. Whatever they say can't be worse than their complacency.

Your one and only goal: stay on message. This is bad and it needs to stop. Here is how it affects you. Here is how it affects your family. Here is how things are going wrong, and why.

More than anything else, we need each other. We need solidarity, community. We need to genuinely start asking ourselves: how do we win? And then make the answer happen.

We kneel beneath the weight of wealth and tradition and fear. But despite the growth of AI, at the end of the day the people we kneel beneath are people. Humans decide what happens next. They are human. We are all human. We can decide what happens next.

The changes in attitudes towards social media websites, caused in this instance by Elon Musk are a great way for those in power to suppress another Arab Spring type event in the future.

The change in attitude is the consequence, not the cause. The best way for those in power to suppress another Arab Spring type event is a change in ownership of a massively influential social media platform where the richest man can take over completely to censor and control the narrative and oh, whoops... that already happened.

Maybe that’s your point, that properly understanding the genesis of some term can undermine your desire to use it? And you’re right. Cretinism, the disease, makes me really sad, as does the fact that assholes chose to turn it into a pejorative. So maybe that has something to do with my unwillingness to ever use the word. In my mind, “retard” was more of a vague diagnosis of mental slowness, so it makes it less real as an actual medical condition.

For me, the vagueness of the diagnosis is what makes me sad. To think of how many vulnerable people were left struggling for answers with very little help from that word and plenty of hurt from it for so long. Perhaps this makes it less concrete in the mind than a word with a more specific target, but no less sad to me. Cretinism makes me sad as well, and more so when I think about how many people could have easily avoided it if they just knew more about thyroids.

So yes, precisely! If people change how they feel and think, they change how they speak. Not just their internal dictionary, but the way they use their words too.

I appreciate your time, understanding, and well-reasoned discussion. Thank you!