this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Beehaw* defederated us? (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 
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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Who else here is chilling on their own instance watching this shit unfold with some popcorn πŸ˜‚

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

raises hand

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Exactly the reason why Lemmy at scale will never work, since most people won't run their own instance.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think running your own instance is required, just that the user base needs to be distributed across more instances. The happy median lies somewhere between "uber" instances and self-hosted.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yes, but the common user would just register on the most popular instance. It will take a lot of effort to change that mindset.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am a lurker over there so this decision literally changes nothing about how I use beehaw and my community is still awesome so I'm all goodπŸ‘

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Shh 🀫 they might defederate us too if we say too much

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This is surfacing a fundamental division between mindsets in federation: the people who say don't worry about which instance you're on are bought into the promise that federation can "just work" like email. But the reality is that if you care about moderation at all (like, even to the extent of being for or against having any of it) then sooner or later you're going to have to make harder decisions about instances.

It's pretty normal for long-term fediverse users to change instances several times over the course of however long this stuff has been around. It's unclear to me whether any existing Lemmy instances would be a good fit for me in the long term TBH and I would expect that to be true for some time, as so many instances are still figuring things out internally.

Defederation decisions like beehaw made are extremely normal and rational. With their level of moderation staffing and for their user base, they determined it was unsustainable to remain federated with instances that were generating more moderation workload. If it wasn't them today it would be another instance tomorrow; this will keep happening.

Also, I see a lot of folks saying this is lazy for beehaw, but it's important to understand that from their perspective, this problem wouldn't arise if moderators here were keeping a cleaner house and preventing bad actors from using the platform. (Not saying either take is entirely correct.)

In a sense, moderation best practices on the fediverse are inimically hostile to scaling the fediverse up to new users. (And if you ask folks with smaller but prosperous instances that have healthy internal vibes, they'll probably tell you this is good.)

This is much more fraught on Lemmy than it is on Mastodon, because you're building communities hosted on a particular instance and there's not currently a way to move the community. So, if I were to start a community here and then finally decide a year from now that this place is too big a defederation target to stay on, what do I do?

Similarly, to avoid endless duplication of communities, folks have been encouraged to participate with existing communities instead of starting a new one on their own instance everytime. But anyone here who has gotten involved with communities on Beehaw will now no longer be able to do so unless they move to a different instance. (Which may be hard, as open instances that are easy to join are the ones that are harder for small instances to handle, which is what caused this in the first place.)

Some of those folks are going to create their own alternative communities on their servers, which to any third-party servers not in the loop on the defederation drama will be potentially confusing. This has the potential to create a cultural tend toward polarization of community norms between everything goes and what we see on Mastodon as content warning policing, but of which are, to me, undesirable.

The best case scenario is that the majority of large communities end up being hosted on instances that have sufficiently rigorous moderation standards and sufficiently robust moderation staff to not impose an unsustainable workload on smaller instances. Then as long as everyone who's not a nazi federates with those instances, things should go smoothly...ish. But that's hard both because "sufficiently rigorous" is different for everyone and because moderation labor doesn't grow on trees.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The part where things get tricky is that beehaw currently has ~15 of the top 50 communities across the entire fediverse and has become the defacto discussion grounds for gaming/tech/news/etc.

One could argue this goes against the whole concept of decentralized communication in the first place, and this may be a position beehaw doesn’t want to be in.

Beehaw has every right to foster a tight-knit community that adheres to its desires.

But there also is a level of responsibility and custodianship over these large communities they foster for the betterment and adoption of the fediverse.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I guess the others will need to work with them to fix the issues that resulted in this decision.

It's all about teamwork across the verse and we'll have to see if they can manage it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago

btw, e-mail servers regularly defederate/block domains that allow a lot of spam...

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

They made the users suffer for their unwillingness to cope with their situation.

Instead of planning ahead and only accepting a limited amount of users, which would have severed only a fraction of users from us, they decided to grow to become one of the biggest instances, and now took some interesting communities with them, along with cutting off their own users from communities here.

I hope their user base migrates to other, more open instances, and the communities lost will spring into existence elsewhere.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think it's easy to take this personally but I think it's more about the moderation tools in Lemmy not being adequate at the moment so this is the best bandaid solution for now. We need to quickly put effort into developing better moderation tools like limiting other servers without fully defederating, limiting specific communities, forcing nsfw on communities/instances, proxying reports to origin servers so admins have better feedback on their instance user's bad behavior, and many other things if we want to prevent defederating like this from being the only option.

I think infighting about this decision and differing moderation styles instead of focusing together on moderation challenges and tooling deficiencies risks tearing the community / federation apart and is counterproductive to the goal of being better than reddit.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can completely understand why they did but it really sucks that it had to happen. Hopefully, as the Fediverse grows, better tools are made available so instances don't need to defederate from each other.

With that said, I think it's a pretty amazing concept that they can. Terrible, sure, but nonetheless amazing.

I also wasn't aware that other instances vetted their users? This was the first one I picked. Is there a plan to address the issues beehaw brought up?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

as someone who just joined, and is still trying to understand "federated" can someone give me an ELI5 rundown of what this means? I thought it didn't matter which instance you joined because they were all connected, does this mean that other instances can just... block an entire instance?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It's essentially like email. If you have a gmail, you can communicate with anyone on any other email service. If gmail determines that spamsite.xyz, you won't send or recieve any emails from that domain. Same thing here. You're using lemmy.world. If lemmy.world defederates with my server sh.itjust.works, you won't see my messages. We will just never cross paths.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

hmm...that seems super counterintuitive to what I thought the fediverse was all about. That would be like Gmail just deciding all Yahoo emails are spam. doesn't this mean that Lemmy will just be a bunch of islands of content that will require users to have multiple accounts for each instance?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Apparently the main issue is that the "ALL" feed starts showing posts of other instances when one user subscribes to anything there. So if e.g. you don't block a NSFW instance, you will have popular porn posts showing up on your instance as well.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can't bothered beehaw users just simply block the instances they don't like by themselfes? Does this have to be instance-wide?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The issue they stated wasn't with other federated communities, but with the users from those federated instances spamming their communities. Beehaw has a strict account policy and only want users they've personally vetted commenting and posting in their communities. So in effect they are blocking instances they've determined to be problematic by defederating them. At least that's my understanding of it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The issue they stated wasn't with other federated communities, but with the users from those federated instances spamming their communities.

Yes, I understand that, but this seems to be effectively the same. Why not leave the decision to the individual users?

Beehaw has a strict account policy and only want users they've personally vetted commenting and posting in their communities.

Well, the fediverse kind of seems to be the wrong choice for them, then. It lives from the federation. If you want to be isolated it's just a plain old forum.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Seems like you are missing the point a bit.
Because of the open registration policy of those instances and the many users they do not have the necessary tools and manpower to moderate harassing and offensive posts which go against their policy (which they can absolutely set as they want, since it's their instance) so they block the users of those instances from posting and commenting for the time being.
So it's not about isolation themselves just for the sake of being and exclusive club of people but because the moderators can't handle the amount of traffic

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I was never able to sign up or log into Beehaw. It's very limited in terms of who it allows to sign up, and the waitlist is probably incredibly long.
This cutoff means that I'll have to live without being able to participate in a lot of discussions, which defeats the purpose of joining the fediverse entirely.
It's just as useful to me as using Reddit right now, even less so with how much less popular Lemmy instances are currently.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

beehaw are trying to be a perfectly moderated and "high quality" community and they are struggling to keep up with it when federated to other large instances.

I think they might need to change their methods because it is inevitable that some crap is going to be going on in low effort posts and comments, but defederating one very large instance from other very large instances is against the whole idea the movement.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (11 children)

I specifically just deleted my beehaw account and created one here because of this... This move makes me reconsider this whole lemmy thing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, me as well. Seems kbin has a way more open minded view on things. They don't defederate from anyone, which suits me just fine. I wouldn't like to defederated from anyone, including lemmygrad. There are some interesting reads over there (at least for me).

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I understand why they did it, four mods is not enough for the traffic. However, I think they could've anticipated this better than just removing one of the largest instances. Hire more mods. It seems beehaw has banned so much that I am honestly unsure why they want to be federated. I like the idea of beehaw, some things, like limited communities and no downvotes are really smart. But the closed community mindset may kill it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Correct me if I am wrong.

A "federation" is a form of state structure in which parts of a state are state entities with legally defined political autonomy within a federation.

Federation, in contrast to confederation, provides for a certain coordinating administration. That is, you still have no freedom here, and you don't even know who pays the electric bill in your new entity.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think it's also important to note, beehaw has the largest amount of blocked communities

https://github.com/maltfield/awesome-lemmy-instances

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Reading through the comments in their post I'm losing the little sympathy I was feeling. It looks like the moderation tool they are hoping for is one that allows their users to access other communities while preventing the other communities from accessing beehaw. That feels shortsighted and selfish, and I would think most communities on that end on the block would block them reciprocally.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Itβ€˜s the bubble concept I already curated for myself on Reddit by filtering out what feels like half the website. Except now I can sort of choose my pre-made bubble, which is more effort to be certain (have to research the admins of a chosen instance a bit and understand their rules and values), but I donβ€˜t mind that.

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