this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2023
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Clueless guy looking for family car (EU) (lemm.ee)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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I'm in Europe, looking for family car and have no idea what to look for, as cars are far from my thing.

I'll start with a bit of info. We don't drive that much, most often just short rides in town (like groceries, kids to school, etc.) or short drives to nearby towns (10-15km). Longer distances about once a month (50+ km). Slughtly bigger car is a preference as we usually have stuff to carry in boot. Currently we have old Ford Mondeo turnier from 2003 and due to its engine problems it needs to be replaced. I have around 15k € budget, so will be looking at used market cars.

Because of intended use I scratched out all diesel offerings. Right? Leaving me with either gasoline or hybrid options. Full EV are probably no go due to price. I've picked a few possible cars from local/nearby sellers and would really appreciate your input on them (or alternatives I should be looking at).

Ford Focus wagon from 2019. Has 1.0 ecoboost engine (92 kW / 125 hp), has some nice equipment options like auto AC, heated seats, steering wheel and front screen. It has a mileage of just about 90k km (60k miles). It's priced slightly under 13k €.

Toyota Auris sports wagon hybrid, from 2018. It's typical Toyota prius-like hybrid with 1.8 liter engine and electric motor. Not plug-in hybrid. Mileage of around 150k km (100k miles). It's slightly less equipped than the Focus (and it doesn't support android auto or carplay) and is priced around 15k €.

2019 Kia Cee'd wagon. It is probably the simplest car in this list - it has 1.4 liter engine without direct injection and without turbo (73 kW) - does it mean less things to break? Other equipment is pretty good though (parking camera, heated seats and wheel, ...), it has mileage if just 40k km (25k miles) and it should still be in factory warranty till 2026. Priced at 12.5k €.

There's also VW Passat variant 2016 plug-in hybrid. It's decent condition, although it has over 210k km (like 140k miles). I don't have option to recharge at home (flat), but there are 2 or 3 public stations in walk distance. Priced at roughly 16k € it's slightly over my intended budget, but it's a bigger more comfortable car and has plenty of optional features (like parking camera, driving assistants, full led lights, etc.).

And there's about another gazzillion of cars and my brain hurts... Would you please help me decide?

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

American here, so I can only help so much, but I can give my personal opinion, and you can take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, I’d remove the VW from the list of the bat. I’ve never had good luck with them being super reliable. I also have seen a lot of friends spend a lot of money on problems with them (usually electrical/control system). Other people absolutely love/swear by them. I do not. Edit: I missed that the vw was a plugin hybrid the first time I read through. Personally. Run. Run far and fast from that car.

The warranty makes the Kia appealing, but having had both a Kia and a Hyundai in the family now, they are cheap and fall a part much faster than a Mazda or Toyota in my experience. In fact, our Kia was sitting in the dealership parking lot for like 4-6 months waiting for Kia to figure out how to fix a problem they made by doing a recall. Every time we asked how much longer, we got a “Kia doesn’t know how to fix the issue yet, so we don’t know” that said husband loves driving his Hyundai.

The Toyota. We don’t have that model here, but I’d imagine it’s like the rest of the Toyota line (at least the bulk of them). Cheap feeling, and boring to drive. Should be reliable, however, the batteries make it potentially very expensive to repair in a few years. How long do you plan to keep this vehicle?

The ford would probably be my pick from your list, but I don’t know much about the 1ltr eco boost. Its bigger cousins are fun to drive for what they are. They seem to be relatively reliable and potent for their size and get ok mileage.

Personally, if I were you, I’d look at Mazda. Both the 2 and 3 hatches might fit your requirements. For a while now they have been making much nicer feeling cars than you should be getting for the money. I’ve owned Mazdas (and some of the ones know to be the least reliable cars ever) and I have nothing but great things to say about the brand (minus one dealership) and driving experience. They seem to have really thought out what they are doing.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd second the Mazda recommendation. Depending on your family size now and in the future I can't recommend the CX-5 enough if you need more space than a 3 hatchback.

If you can't charge a phev at or work it it's more of a lead weight than a benefit since you would have to take it somewhere to charge. I am jealous you are getting the MX-30 R-EV which would have been my pick for a new commuter Mazda.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Wow, that MX-30 R-EV looks really cool. The price will be insane, though.

I'll check MX-5, but super quick search popped up only older ones (newest being 2015) in my budget.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm also an American with next to no idea how things are in Europe (except that cars are little).

I did see this car in a London dealership though and it seems like a half decent price for the car (from an American pov).https://www.balhamcarslimited.com/used-nissan-qashqai-balham-london-5189900

Its got lower than average miles, and imo nissan has masterbated making really comfortable seats.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

imo nissan has masterbated making really comfortable seats.

Nissan has what?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nissan and NASA were involved somehow to make “zero gravity seats”. They are actually comfy. Iirc they were only on the Altima, but they may have moved to other models now too. Before like 2010 they as well have been metal park benches. I agree.

Edit: apparently nasa wasn’t involved. Idk. I remember they were. Anyhow. They apparently used the zero gravity seats in just about everything now. You can see a list here

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nissan worked with NASA or maybe they just bought the tech (I seem to remember some kind of collaboration) for their seats. That’s why everyone loves them.

As for reliability, as someone who works on Nissans, avoid them like the plague. Plus parts for Nissan are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. Valve covers for a 350z are over $400 EACH and that’s not the most outlandishly priced part I’ve looked up recently.

Edit: nasa wasn’t involved the seats were “inspired” by zero gravity. I remember a different story when they came out but whatever.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

It's hard to compare reliability for the same cars in North America vs western Europe since the weather is much better (compared to most of North America, so not counting California) and preventive maintenance is much more common in Europe. My friend is a mechanic that came from Europe to Canada and he can't believe the shit people find acceptable to drive over here...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Interesting piece of info. Thank you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m in San Diego. Can’t really get better weather than here. However, for anything with lots of battery, high heat is bad, so there’s that.

All of that’s why prefaced my statement with I’m an American. No one else had replied yet, so I figured I’d give my $0.02 as someone who works on cars.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Not saying your reply was bad, just wanted to add that disclaimer because VWs are considered to be great cars in Europe and as a person who does preventive maintenance I've never had as much issue with mine as my girlfriend has had with her Honda for example.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, interestingly enough VW is considered one of the more reliable brands in Europe. Indeed, cars and their usage is way different on both sides of the pond... Why would you dismiss hybrid option? The car supposedly was well serviced throughout its life, with all prescribed oil changes, spark plug changes, etc.

As for Kia the good thing is Kia has authorized service right in my small town (15k people). I know the brand has (had) its problems, but again, the reputation of the brand is quite high now. This could not be said like 10-15 years ago, when these cars were considered mostly trash. Nowadays? Everyone says they've matched (or even surpassed) traditional European brands.

If I checked right Auris should be renamed Corolla. No idea why Toyota did this name change, especially when Auris was a thing for only like 10 years and now we're back at Corolla name. Weird. Never mind, Toyota states their batteries should be like 90% after 10 years? That's more than enough with me assuming it's true. And how long do I plan to have the car? Probably until it falls apart, like both my previous cars did 🙃

Glad to hear good words on Ford in general. Was one on top of my list. I've been happy with our Mondeo over all, but it's 20 years old, been through some tough conditions and it shows...

I've indeed looked at Mazda offerings. If I had the money I'd be driving 6 already 🤣 My coworker is huge fan of the brand and he can't recommend it enough, so I hear it almost every day. The 2 is definitely too small, I mean it would be probably OK inside, but its boot is virtually non-existent. The 3 looks quite nice, it has decent sized boot, but I'm not a fan of small back seat window design. I have small kids and the car feels really dark inside and has very restricted view out, which is not really a thing I'd want, sadly :-( Pricing is decent for 3 too. The 6 would be ideal, but I can't really fit in my budget with one.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Iirc is rated pretty high in reliability here too. That doesn’t always translate perfectly to reality. I dismiss the hubris option of a VW without thought. As I said, I’ve seen too many vw with electrical issues, and then add in a complex hybrid system. Lol. No thanks. As I said, others may disagree with me, but this is my experience.

Kia may have a good warranty, sure. They may also have a service center near you. That doesn’t mean they will honor the warranty (manufacturers deny for BS all the time) or like in my experience, they legitimately don’t know how to fix a problem, and you’re left without a car for months on end. As I said, we were like 4-6 months without our car before I got so frustrated I traded it in on the hyundai. The quality of materials they use, in their late model cars, from what I’ve seen, is inferior to the more established brands like Mazda or Toyota. They also feel cheaper to me.

I’m pretty sure I said the Toyota would be fine just boring like the rest of them. Yeah, a Corolla is boring and cheap feeling but should be reliable.

Ford is ford. There’s a reason they sell as many cars as they do worldwide. Would I personally prefer a Japanese (built in Japan) car to a ford? Yes, but would I prefer a ford to a VW? Again, yes.

Imo, you literally can’t do better for the money than a Mazda. If the 2 is too small, then look at then CX3. Same chassis totally different feel. Or, the 3 comes in a sedan too, which is usually cheaper. Late model Mazdas feel, and drive like they should cost at least 15k more than they do, and if you can make it work, worth the price imo.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mazda makes the best family cars. I LOVED my Mazda 6 and their SUVs are really fancy for the price.

They will not last as long as a Toyota. If you're interested in reliability go for a Toyota.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Well, Mazda is IMO really overpriced here. They have great cars, but since there are not that usual in my country (thus feeling premium), people are asking too much for them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

15k may well get you a BMW series 2 ActiveTourer. They are probably the best MPV on the market.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Until it needs a repair, which seem to be frequent and costly for BMW. They are great when under warranty, but as a budget friendly used car, not so much.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Good point. I've heard real horror stories about some BMW service pricing...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Never even heard about this one. I always took BMW as a brand for posers flashing their shiny and powerful car and driving like a$*holes. At least that's usual BMW experience where I live.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you can't charge at home, don't get a phev.

For our family, we once had a Citroën grand c4 Picasso and loved it - just got rid of it to switch to a BEV, but other than that had no issues with it.

For a family that doesn't drive much but needs space if it does, what about high roof station wagons? Citroën Berlingo, VW Caddy, stuff like that?

Full EV are probably no go due to price.

Not necessarily. Depends on how big your family is and how much space you need in your car. For your budget, you could get a used electric VW golf, Kia soul or Nissan leaf, which are all compact cars but might still be okay for a family of three or four. I even just found an electric Renault kangoo with 5 seats for about 10k at https://m.mobile.de/auto-inserat/renault-kangoo-z-e-maxi-lang-5-sitzer-inkl-batterie-garbsen-bei-hannover/367923883.html?searchId=039c99f4-0879-cacf-50e7-d320b4ad6cc9&ref=srp&type=ad . Electric cars might offer you better durability for those short trips, which obviously are no problem for them, while even gas cars tend to need a longer trip every now and then (and diesel obviously even more). You won't get much range for that budget though - for what your said you'd need, it'd work though.

If you're in Europe, consider European brands a little more. Parts can be an issue for oversea brands. Usual spare parts are mostly available, but if something fancy needs to be ordered from Korea or the US, it might take some time. Every European brand offers station wagons and vans, there's too much to list them all, and honestly, established brands don't build objectively bad cars anymore... You might always have bad luck or better luck, but in the end you should be fine with any of them. Just don't buy diesel or phev with your profile.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Isn't uncharged PHEV basically just a regular HEV, like what Toyota does? With a bit more weight to it, sure. But as I said, there are chargers nearby enough (I'm saying that knowing I'll probably still be to lazy to get there often enough).

My brother has exactly C4 Grand Picasso. It's nice (apart from terrible driver user experience - I really dislike everything crammed to the middle), spacious, but given his experience... well, maybe he just had a bad luck. His car needs a service way more often than it should.

Exactly Barlingo or Caddy was my initial thought, but when I presented this idea to my wife I ... let's just say it's not an option anymore 🤣 No idea why, but she really hates this design for some reason.

Will check the "cheap EV" options.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Since you personally don't care about cars and you don't drive much the logical choice would be the Kia. I personally had good experiences with NA engines. What you have to know about them is that they don't have much power at low rpm so you have to shift more than with a turbo. Also they're usually louder because the engine noise gets straight to the exhaust pipe without getting muffled by the turbo. If it has an automatic gearbox shifting wouldn't be a concern for you.

Another car that you might want to look into is the Skoda Fabia. It's probably the most cookie cutter car in Europe right now so you will probably find a used car in your price range and still get pretty much exactly the extras you want.
Have you looked into minivans yet? With your needs it might be worthwhile to look into something smaller like the Honda Jazz. Give it a try and check if the space it provides is sufficient for you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I wanted to add, that I was a little surprised by seeing an engine without direct injection from 2019 but I'm not too deep into cars. What I think is noteworthy is that the engine in that car is at the end of its product life cycle. And what do you get when you get a product at the end of its life cycle? A product with all the kinks worked out. I'd suggest to do your own research but I bet that car is a tank if it has stuff in it that has been worked on for years.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would got for either the Passat or Ford Focus - my first choice being the Passat) - provided its got a full service history and had all the warranty work and software updates (and if you are getting it from a dealer they have warranty). VW's are fine (at least here in Europe) provided they are looked after and serviced regularly, but increasingly just like tech early adopters end up being unpaid beta/QC testers. That the Passat has clocked up 210 000 km does however suggest its been reliable enough...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

To be honest Ford Focus was my primary thought and I was eyeing mainly at them. The car is nice, spacious (last gen 2018/2019 and newer), 1.0 liter engine should be powerful enough, and the car has good ergonomic - physical controls for all the things you need: starting from radio, through AC control and ending with turning off Stop/Start. Since car prices went nuts in last years, better spec'd ones tend to be way more costly though :-( I still consider it one of the best candidates so far.

I've stumbled upon the Passat by chance. I wasn't even looking at Passat models at all because they are usually 1. diesel engine and 2. way above my budget. I didn't even knew VW does hybrids. This one is tempting because it is really nice comfy car and has probably more bells and whistles than all the other cars I mentioned combined. Sure, it has 210k already, but when I looked into it I've seen 300k and even 400k+ up for sale. Seller states it has been well serviced through all its life, oil changes, spark plugs, brakes, etc. Haven't seen service book yet, though.

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