Russia invaded Ukraine. Invaded. And occupied. With weapons. With murder and torture. And child abduction. And declarations that Ukraine as country, culture and people, should not exist.
That is unjustifiable.
this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Just what we all need, a year old article blaming Ukraine for not wanting to be conquered by Russia.
You speak like Ukraine was a single person and a single opinion. Many people don't support the Ukrainian regime, that's why they banned political opposition. Also many people don't support the Russian regime.
What is this shit?
What do you mean?
Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, and in return Ukraine gave up their nuclear deterrent.
The memoranda, signed in Patria Hall at the Budapest Convention Center with US Ambassador Donald M. Blinken amongst others in attendance,[3] prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, "except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations." As a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
Are you going to argue that Russia is acting in self defense?
The Budapest Memorandum was violated and therefore nullified before 2014. It literally says that in your wikipedia article
On 4 March the Russian president Vladimir Putin replied to a question on the violation of the Budapest Memorandum, describing the current Ukrainian situation as a revolution: "a new state arises, but with this state and in respect to this state, we have not signed any obligatory documents".[32] Russia stated that it had never been under obligation to "force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will". Russia suggested that the US was in violation of the Budapest Memorandum and described the Euromaidan as a US-instigated coup.
That's your level of proof, because Putin said so?
Where does it says so? Can you point to that specific section of the text? I've just checked and must have missed it, it wasn't there.
Are you going to argue that Russia is acting in self defense?
It seems like both regimes violated their treaties: Kiev Violates Minsk Agreement Causing Fighting To Resume In Ukraine. There was also an oral treaty that talked about eastern expansion of NATO (which some call "a terrorist organization"), but it wasn't written, as far as I know. The USA also acted in "self-defense" against many countries, nearly 400 according to Wikipedia.
Also, why does Russia not have loads of troops near the border with Finland?
Surely, if NATO is such a threat. Why?
I don't know you, but I'm being forced to pay more taxes and the inflation caused by the economic sanctions to support this puppet regime that bans all opposition, forces people to die on the battlefield and doesn't let people leave the country.
"Oral treaty", oral international treaty.... now that sounds like a heavily manipulative level of naivety.
It's the Russian narrative
Whataboutism. Internal conflicts are internal matters for sovereign nations.
There was no oral treaty. Russia never asked for anything to be enshrined in an agreement. Don't ask, don't get.
And anyone is free to join NATO, Russia tried to after all.
The problem with this take, and all braindead takes like this, is it assumes Ukrainians get no vote in how they are governed. The EU, NATO, and basically all western institutions are voluntary. You can join if you meet these conditions. And guess what, people are clamouring to join. No-one held a gun to Finland or Sweden's head to make them discard historical neutrality to apply to NATO. They simply saw how Russia was trying to use guns in Ukraine.
Similarly, the Ukraine chose the west. Calling the MAIDAN uprising a western coup denies them a voice. Yanukovych was voted in under the promise that he would tighten bonds with the West. Then after he gets voted in, he tears up the pending agreement with the EU. So people protest against this. Yanukovych baited and switched everyone.
They really got no vote: no elections, no opposition political parties, no way to leave the country if you want, huge oligarchy, a lot of corruption, huge debt...
And guess what, people are clamouring to join
I'm clamouring to leave, and many people as well.
the Ukraine chose the west.
You talk like Ukraine was unified place, like western and southern Ukraine were the same. Did Crimea choose the West? Did Donbass?
They really got no vote: no elections, no opposition political parties, no way to leave the country if you want, huge oligarchy, a lot of corruption, huge debt…
Did you ignore the part where I said they voted for a politician who said he would strengthen ties to the West? Then did the opposite? Then the people took to the streets until he fled the country?
I’m clamouring to leave, and many people as well.
To leave your country, or to have your country leave NATO/EU/western alliances/etc? I'm sure you could try and convince people in your country to leave NATO, but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.
You talk like Ukraine was unified place, like western and southern Ukraine were the same. Did Crimea choose the West? Did Donbass?
It's an imagined community for sure. If you think consent can only be granted if it's by every individual rather than a collective in a democratic vote, then sure. I think most people think democratic votes are the best expression of the people's will. It's hardly perfect, but certainly better than a self-appointed vanguard.
Did you ignore the part where I said they voted for a politician who said he would strengthen ties to the West? Then did the opposite? Then the people took to the streets until he fled the country?
No, note that I'm using the present tense. I don't believe what politicians say. They both lied.
To leave your country, or to have your country leave NATO/EU/western alliances/etc? I’m sure you could try and convince people in your country to leave NATO, but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.
Both.
but NATO support is generally at a long-time high right now.
I don't think so. They had to start a propaganda operation to boost support of NATO on social networks, because people are getting tired of socio-economic problems, and most people are tired of warmongers that only fill the pockets of the arms industries.
If you think consent can only be granted if it’s by every individual rather than a collective in a democratic vote, then sure. I think most people think democratic votes are the best expression of the people’s will. It’s hardly perfect, but certainly better than a self-appointed vanguard.
"Democratic" states are mostly controlled by oligarchs. I recommend to read the book the Ego and its own to understand why democracy is garbage. Not even half of the people with voting rights voted on 2019 Ukrainian elections, Crimea and separatist Donbass not included, so well...
Mi ne komprenas kial vi subtenas tion. Politikistoj politikos, ekzistas la geopolitiko. Ĉiuj la landoj ludas la saman povgajnigan ludon. Se la politikistoj de Usono aŭ la Ukrainio aŭ la Rusio faras ion aŭ alia kaj militile lutas kaj mortigas... Tio estas tiel kompleksa afero ke diri ke estas ĉio ĉar la Usono faris ion, aŭ ke ĉio estas pro la okcidento, estas tro simpla unuflanka vidpunkto. Ĉiuj la registaroj ludas la ludon de la geopolitiko kaj ĉiuj faris ion por ke ĉi tiu mortigego okazu. Kaj poste kio? Mi ne vere kredas, ke diri ke tiu politikisto aŭ tiu alia politikisto kreis la situacion, plibonigos ion, aŭ estos vere grava vidpunkto.
Vi menciis la libron de Max Stirner. Kial ne vere helpi ĉirkaŭ vi, serĉi via feliĉecon kaj tiu de aliaj, anstataŭ serĉi, per duone fermitaj okuloj, kulpulojn, kiam ni jam scias ke ĉiuj la politikistoj kulpas de ĉio en la geopolitiko?
Mi ne komprenas kial vi subtenas tion.
Kion mi subtenas? Mi subtenas pacon.
Tio estas tiel kompleksa afero ke diri ke estas ĉio ĉar la Usono faris ion, aŭ ke ĉio estas pro la okcidento, estas tro simpla unuflanka vidpunkto.
Mi ne diris tion. Mi nur diskonigis artikolon, kiun mi ne skribis. Mi pensas, ke nek Usono nek Rusio bone agis.
Kial ne vere helpi ĉirkaŭ vi, serĉi via feliĉecon kaj tiu de aliaj, anstataŭ serĉi, per duone fermitaj okuloj, kulpulojn, kiam ni jam scias ke ĉiuj la politikistoj kulpas de ĉio en la geopolitiko?
Mi vere helpas multajn homojn. Mi tradukis Lemmy al la hispana kaj al Esperanto, mi lernigas homojn pri komputiloj, mi kreas liberajn programojn, ktp.
Looks like we have a lot of nazi lovers here from reddit now
After looking around, I'm fairly certain the mod of this community is MIA
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