this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2023
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Lemmy

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Everything about Lemmy; bugs, gripes, praises, and advocacy.

For discussion about the lemmy.ml instance, go to [email protected].

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The time to streamline Lemmy onboaring is now. Let's do it like mastodon did. (blog.joinmastodon.org)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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I've seen lots of discussion on reddit of users trying to get others to join Lemmy and the prevailing reply is that it is too difficult to navigate and comprehend. Having to answer multiple questions and wait for manual verification is combersome and is limiting growth at a time when nothing should be standing in Lemmy's way. Combine this with server/instance selection analysis paralysis, and you get my point.

The linked mastodon blog post sums up my thoughts, but the TLDR is essentially this:

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Don't let dreams of decentralization interfere with the greater goal of achieving the network effect.

We should all be telling people to go to lemmy.ml and sign up. The devs should be too, and they should rethink/remove the questions and waiting period. Hell, just put a captcha. Discussions about servers and analogies to email as an example of federated service we all already use is a waste of breath. We shouldn't have barriers to entry.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I've just found kbin.social and find it has superior signup options. It's just: make an account (email/password), or sign up with Google or Apple. No server talk. Upside is the layout is nice and it acts as a Lemmy instance (threads) as well as a mastodon instance (microblogging). Only downside currently is that their android/iOS app is in development and isn't ready yet, so desktop only.

https://github.com/ernestwisniewski/kbin

https://kbin.social/

I think this might be the better recommendation for newbies at the moment.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think the main problem here is that there isn't a really accessible explanation of federation and how these social platforms differ from the other, larger options. There is lots of great documentation for interested users to acquaint themselves with, but it would be beneficial to have a more 'elevator pitch' version that can get people moving through the signup process with more confidence. Even just a short message saying: "hey, choosing your instance isn't as important as it looks right now, you'll be able to freely use any other instance once you sign up" could go a long way towards making on-boarding much smoother. Once a user is in the system, they can learn what details they care about through osmosis for the most part.

I do think that having a default instance would help with streamlining the on-boarding process, but I don't think that the idea aligns with the values of lemmy as a whole. It's important to keep services decentralized in order to keep things free and open.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

A default instance would help people signup more easily, but afaik there's currently no way to migrate to another instance right? So this approach already causes problems on Mastodon but it seems like it would be even worse over here due to people then being "trapped" on whatever the default is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I personally look at federation like email. Doesn't matter if I am using a Hotmail email address. I can still talk to everyone over at gmail, icloud, yahoo, Comcast etc....

email is the original federation service.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As a person new to federations, I have to admit that the mail analogy doesn't really answer or clarify much. Who decides what gets to go into a federation? Should everyone be in a single federation since otherwise there is no communication? Do I need a separate account per federation? Whats the practical limit on number of instances per federation?

I think first of all we need a really good FAQ.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I think you're getting hung up on the word "federations" (noun) instead of the adjective "federated".

Who decides who gets to email who? The email provider admins. Should everyone be in a single email network/bubble since otherwise there is no communication? Mostly, yes. Do I need a separate account per email bubble? Per email bubble? Yes. But how many email bubbles are there? One? Whats the practical limit on number of providers per the email world? None, mostly?

Gmail does ban a lot of small email providers if they don't seem "legit" enough. And that is where you're onto something with the noun federations.

If a bunch of instances really disliked a different bunch of instances they can indeed severe each other from each other. The admins would do that. They put the other instances on a block list. Most Mastodon instances block Trump's Lie ehm Truth Social etc. But otherwise you can talk from gmail to hotmail to mcselfhost, with one account.

Basically federation works based on a block-list, not a allow-list, unless the admins of the instance set it that way, just like email providers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

i like mastodon's approach - its clean, simple, and easy to understand.

i think the fediverse is just a very hard concept for people to wrap their heads around if they aren't internet savvy or already knowledgable on these things. i think in general there needs to be an easier way to fully explain what it is and get it across to people.

lemmy should def adopt something similar here to mastodon. i think having a default server is smart and probably the right move (with the "Pick your own server" option or something similar right below, just like what Mastodon is doing, so users easily have the option), HOWEVER i think before that happens, lemmy does need to allow migrating and moving servers, and ik lemmy.ml is being overloaded really badly rn in general, so those issues probably need to be sorted too.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think they need an easy wizard, some way to guide users to an instance they could use to sign in. Ask a couple questions and then bam here you are. The biggest issue then is "Well you don't go here to sign in now you use this url. " lemmy could add some sort of redirect though for known people?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A wiki for new users would be super helpful. It took me a couple of tries to even get to the account creation stage from a baseline of "not knowing anything about federated content"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

A quick video on the homepage, professionally done would be really useful too. One of those snappy 1min videos on how to sign up, and what federated means with lots of animations.

There's a reason those types of videos are everywhere, they work well

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It should be by geolocation/language and to not confuse people, the instance should be a lemmy.xx domain by default.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can't have a default server unless someone is ready to pay for it. (Idk how Mastodon does it.)

What I'd do is:

  1. have every instance list its most prevalent topics/communities/interests (technology, games, communism, memes...)

  2. when the user is signing up, have them select their interests

  3. try to find the ideal match. Let the user override if they want to, perhaps let them know if the community is tiny, requires approval etc, but other than that just show a "suggested instance: example.org, change link"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Mastodon is a company. A non-profit one, but they've had enough donations and funding for a while now to draw salaries for multiple people to the point that they were hiring earlier this year. The head of Mastodon even calls themselves the "CEO"! All of the instances that use mastodon software have to rely on their own donations from their own users. But mastodon, the central company, have enough money to hire and pay employees and run their own largest instance (by a long way) on the fediverse (which is not coincidentally the default instance to join in the app).

This is why it's insidious that they're brand has become so pervasive to the point where most don't know about the fediverse, only mastodon. It's heading toward a form of re-centralisation of some sort. And, with the current rate of user growth (checkout https://fedidb.org/), the majority of english-speaking mastodon users may in not too long a time be all on one central instance.