this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2023
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Highlights include Sliding Sync (instant login/launch/sync), Native OIDC (industry-standard authentication), Native Group VoIP (end-to-end encrypted large-scale voice & video conferencing) and Faster Joins (lazy-loading room state when your server joins a room).

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I have to say "Element X" is a very unfortunate name choice ...

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago

I think it's supposed to become just normal element when it gets feature parity with current element

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It is just a codename, Element X is going to be just Element once it replace the old one.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Jesus just go back to calling it Riot.IM the name keeps getting stupider and more corporate.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Matrix has had a bit of trouble penetrating the enterprise market, which is where the real money is. Hence the corporate-speak rename.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I mean, they haven't had that much trouble. Last I checked they had portions of the French and German governments using Matrix as a secure messenger. (To be fair, those both came after the rename.)

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Their main competitor in the open-source, self-hosted space is Mattermost, which has a much more business-oriented solution, so there's that as well.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

That seems more like a direct competitor to Slack and MS Team to me rather than general communication. Matrix is a facinating protocol that keeps pushing the limits of federated communication but it always sucked as replacment for those and unless someone invests huge amounts of money in a completely new client I don't see taht changing any time soon tbh.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Riot games forced them to change the name.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Calm down, it's not a rename, it's a name for the preview client only. Temporary.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wanted to try Element X but apparently my self hosted server is not compatible.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah there is a solution for it https://github.com/matrix-org/sliding-sync I guess I could try to install it.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah I was able to install sliding-sync on Dendrite without issues. A bit surprising that I didn't see any guides made for it yet.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago

Their native group VoIP calling looks to have a solid topology that could easily replace Jitsi in the near term, and eventually compete with larger scale conferencing services like Zoom. That's kind of exciting for those of us who care about open systems and privacy.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I wish the whole project was a little bit more clever with its names. Matrix and Element are not unique enough names and can cause a lot of confusion.

I like the project though and still hope it continues to succeed.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Okay, help an old-timer out.

Lemmy :: Reddit

Mastodon :: Twitter (I refuse to call it "X")

Matrix :: ???

Is it like discord? The olden days of AIM/ICQ/IRC?

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Featureset-wise it falls somewhere between IRC and Discord.

[–] lambda 8 points 1 year ago

2.0 seems to be closing the gap towards Discord more. Which I like.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Matrix really is 21st-century IRC.

[–] u_tamtam 8 points 1 year ago (13 children)

I will get shit for writing that, but Matrix in its current form shouldn't have seen the light of the day, nor should have been let to spread with close to no technical scrutiny and based on empty promises/hype like it did.

Just to be clear, I'm absolutely encouraging, in fact, actively promoting federated alternatives to things like WhatsApp, Messenger, Signal, Telegram, …
But I don't believe for a second that the foundations on which Matrix is built make sense, can be made to work well in practice, nor represent a problem worth spending so much time and effort solving. This article does a good job at introducing the "behind the scenes" of the protocol: https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07

The whole history of Matrix can be summarized as:

  • "let's do this because it's cool"

  • "shit, it's hard/slow, but we will figure it out"

  • "I have a breakthrough, here comes a new version of the protocol/client/…" (the ecosystem reboots)

(rinse and repeat)

Matrix has seen more incompatible reincarnations of itself in the last 5 years than XMPP in the last 20. Arathorn, its lead contributor and evangelist will keep apologizing, promising that this time they have their stuff in order, that whatever buzzword will solve this or that aspect of the problem, while the elephant still is in the room. You practically can't tell apart arathorn's messages of 2015 from those of 2022 and that would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

IMO Matrix is broken beyond repair, while XMPP is quietly used by millions of users. I wish Matrix could carry its own weight and be so unambiguously better that we wouldn't need competing alternatives there. To me, the better XMPP is XMPP itself, and I'd be happy to elaborate on that.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I agree in theory, but in practice my experience with Matrix has been infinitely better than with XMPP:

  • There is no decent client for all major platforms on XMPP. Conversations is "good" on Android, but what is its equivalent on iOS? On the desktop, Pidgin/Adium were ok if you wanted just to chat, but audio/video required a lot of work.
  • No decent web-based client for XMPP.
  • Setting up e2ee is a pain.
  • Setting up MUC is a pain.
  • To this day I did not manage to set up video chat on my XMPP server, or at least I never found someone on a different server that managed to connect with mine.

Matrix may be technically complex, but at least it has managed to keep its ecosystem together. Whenever I've faced an issue with my server, all I needed to do was upgrade synapse. The "millions of users" in XMPP are mostly all on their own silos, while I am yet to have an issue where I want to chat with someone on Matrix but couldn't because their client/server was not compatible with mine.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@u_tamtam @pezhore It's not like XMPP doesn't have issues. Finding a combination of clients and servers to get a coverage of the XEPs you want is quite an exercise. MUCs are painful, especially if you want to join from multiple clients. Cross-device trust between accounts for E2EE AFAIK still requires each device to trust all the other devices manually. Matrix has many more multimedia features.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Kind of a mix between Discord and IRC. Although it doesn't have servers like Discord and is more of individuals rooms. In fact they made bridges an important feature, so an IRC room and Matrix room can be merged together without either side really noticing a difference. Same with Discord and a ton of other programs.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Although it doesn't have servers like Discord

They're called Spaces on Matrix

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you actually tried spaces, you'd realize they're incredibly clunky and not even close to discord rooms. You can't even search for them. They're not quite there yet, they leave a lot to be desired.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

technically it's an eventually consistent federated database (or series of databases i guess? dunno), which just happens to primarily be used for instant messaging similar to discord but also inheriting features from IRC.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Been waiting for this for a long time! Another thing that's been on the horizon I'm eagerly waiting for is p2p. They've been working on Dendrite, which is a much more efficient Synapse, and the goal is to be efficiently running it to effectively running it on your own device as like an invisible self-host. They're working on MXIDs as well so @hostname.com wouldn't be a thing anymore. P2p with all this other tech would make Matrix really the privacy holy grail imo.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

love to see it

[–] u_tamtam 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"Sliding sync" is Matrix's own admission that the protocol is too complex and taxing on clients to be practical, and shifts the burden further onto already overwhelmed servers for what's essentially bouncers marketed as new tech. And it's still a mess.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

"Sliding sync" is Matrix's own admission that the protocol is too complex and taxing on clients to be practical

I know of no major messaging service where the client wants to download everything

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Admitting problems and improving/replacing your protocol is good, you make it sound like a bad thing. I mean you could argue that they should have started with this, but imo better late than never. From what I've seen this will take load off of the client AND the server, because both don't have to sync thousands and thousands of events anymore. It basically looks like an indexing/caching layer between client and server, which is standard practice to make things go faster, especially for thin clients.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can’t wait to see what you’ll develop in response!

[–] u_tamtam 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I won't need to develop anything in response, because an open-standard (IETF) protocol for federated instant communications already existed long before Matrix, and as far as I can tell, from my experience of having administered XMPP and Matrix servers for hundred of users, nothing about Matrix, its design and its implementations makes it more desirable, more reliable, more resilient or more "future proof" than what XMPP came-up with a decade earlier.

And I am aware that I sound like an old man yelling at clouds, I take comfort in the fact that more and more technically-versed people who look behind the marketing and buzz get to see what I know from experience: https://telegra.ph/why-not-matrix-08-07

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think most of the criticism on Telegraph regarding how Matrix handles rooms and events are addressed by the work behind linearized matrix: https://www.qwant.com/?l=en&q=linearized+matrix+messaging&t=web

[–] u_tamtam 4 points 1 year ago

Since its inception, Matrix has always been "months away" from cracking this very problem, I won't hold my breath for this one, not after 10 years of kicking the same can down the road.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Seems like they're building other things in rust, about time for the server? Seems like bloated servers are the biggest downside of matrix. Does anyone more educated on this topic know why it's not a thing?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because Synapse is already widely used. The Matrix foundation is also building Dendrite, which is in beta and written in Go.

Conduit is another server, in Rust https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit

[–] msage 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Dendrite has been in Beta for so long.

I remember installing Synapse 6 years ago thinking "whatever, I'll reinstall it anyway".

Welp

[–] u_tamtam 3 points 1 year ago

Yup, that's the annoying state of Matrix: nothing ever gets completed and running smoothly, because everything's in a constant state of flux

[–] u_tamtam 8 points 1 year ago

Covering up a bloated protocol by a faster language has its limits though, and in the case of Matrix, well, a faster language only buys you little

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