Remember, if someone asks you if you verbally agreed to 24k, you say NO. You verbally agreed to 42k and have the paperwork to match. There is no discrepancy.
this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2023
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I would be really worried that they'll get me somehow over this and fuck me up legally.
Not saying a word…but posting it to the world.
Ah yes Mr Fesshole
Sending it to an anonymous secret tweeting account. It’s like sending it to postsecret
jeez. I haven't thought of postsecret in ages. Just checked and it looks like they're still going, too. Nice!
We've got to give employers some incentive to start reading antiwork!
Wouldn't matter if they did. Unless you agree to the pay cut, you're getting the written amount. If they insist it's supposed to be 24k, stay quiet on it. Especially if they ask what you were offered. They can't force you to tell them, and the right to silence is one of those that you get regardless of who you are or where you're from.
If they try to change your wage, or fire you for not accepting the correction, that would be breach of contract or at least wrongful termination at least.... and that turns into a sizable settlement.
"I don't recall" is a reasonable response
Generally you only have a right to silence in self incrimination, just answering if the agreement was 24 or 42 likely wouldn't apply.
What you really do here is play it dumb as hell. Oh, I'm being over-payed? Really? Wow.
The key to keeping this up is not posting that you know about being over-payed and are doing nothing about it on the internet.
In a court of law, for sure. But for discussion between an employee and boss, I don't think that works the same way. I don't think your boss would have the right to compel speech out of you like that.
Unless it works differently in the UK?
Well, nobody can force you to speak, that's something you'll have to do willingly. So IMO, the right to silence is one of the things that is universal to existence, regardless of law.
Yes, but in a civil case this may turn the favours against you. Even though you may not incriminate yourself, the judge may rule for the other party, as there is no burden of proof, but only of probability.
Of course, a paper contract especially ruling 42k in black and white will be of more weight than a verbal contract.
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As someone on the receiving end of this, it may not pan out for you. I was verbally told I was getting a raise, then my paychecks showed I got a larger raise. I thought nothing of it and enjoyed the extra money, thinking of myself as a hard worker who was worth the extra.
Months later, someone noticed the discrepancy. Queue the company informing me that the overpayment will be taken in one lump sum from my next paycheck, which would have made me unable to make rent. I convinced them to spread the repayment across as many checks as they had overpaid, but that was a pretty miserable experience to say the least.
Can't really happen here, since the contract had the twisted numbers as well. So they have that amount in writing with signatures and all.
I think in some cases you could get fucked if it can be shown that it's an obvious mistake
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You in America? If so, you got screwed and need to call your state labor board.
At least in Florida, they cannot pull that shit. If they put it in your bank account, it's yours. End. Think of all the scams people could pull if they could drop money in your account and then demand it back.
SOURCE: Worked for a payroll firm. If we overpaid someone, or paid the wrong person/account, too damned bad, all we could do was ask nicely for it to be returned.
CAVEAT: The bank can sure as hell pull your funds if it's their mistake.
This is likely state dependent. I've seen them pull back funds from people in MD. That was some years ago now though so that may not still be possible there.
What they can do and what is legal aren't always the same.
It's legal in MA. I was paid double once and they took it back. I looked into it and sure enough, it's totally legal as long as it's within a certain timeframe.
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They might not pull funds, but they can absolutely deduct that money from future checks.
I'm pretty sure that would have been illegal where I live. Paying someone the same amount each month is an implicit contract. You can't just suddenly go "whoops" and not pay for a month.
Depends on what's in the contract, black on white. If the contract says x amount and they pay you y (and you don't speak up), they can get that money back as it was a bookkeeping error.
If the contract says the higher amount then they can't take it back, written contract always wins over verbal.
Fair, but a contract can't overrule actual laws. I'm not sure what exactly those are or where OP lives but if the law says he'd be entitled to that money then a contract couldn't change anything.
I would think it's fairly obvious they are from the UK seeing as they are using the pound symbol for their money - and contracts for employment are king in the UK if I remember correctly
Still, I can't imagine a UK contract can override UK law. You couldn't get someone to sign a contract saying they're a slave and hold them to it. Contracts do not trump laws.
Correct, contracts dont trump laws and your extreme example would not fly in court because of it and because it would break humantarian laws and rights agreed upon in our countries.
That said, he speaks the truth. If a contract says you earn x and you earn x+20 euro, they can and will compensate for that 20 euro. Its perfectly legal and ive seen 2 euros go down from my pay because of book keeping errors. However, i assume the law has a margin for book keeping errors, and if not they can demand it back in court. You signed on it after all...
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That's not how it works in both Germany and Austria. If you have a contract you get paid based on it, if there is a bookkeeping error you have to pay the money back if the company accidentally gives you too much.
The only contracts that are invalid are when the number is very obviously wrong in the context. For example the contract says instead of $50k a year you get paid $500k a year or $5k a year, then the entire thing is void as it's an obvious error.
If the contract says $55k and the company wanted to pay you $45k.. their problem, contract counts. Your boss might be pissed if you keep insisting on the $55k and might fire you, especially if you verbally agreed on $45k. But oh well, that's another topic.
Oh and in the UK? The employer is even allowed to deduct that money from your future wages. So much about knowing the law :)
Not where I live they can't. See my other comment. If your employer gives you money, it's yours, period.
I see this idea a lot online. Guess either employees don't understand their rights or the employers are equally ignorant, both VERY likely.
And no, it's unlikely the employer knows better and is fucking around. The magic words are "labor" and "board", who will find in favor of the employee and throw a fucking to the employer. We handled payroll for quite a few shady employers, but none of them were dumb enough to play around with the money.
That's not how it works in both Germany and Austria. If you have a contract you get paid based on it, if there is a bookkeeping error you have to pay the money back if the company accidentally gives you too much.
The only contracts that are invalid are when the number is very obviously wrong in the context. For example the contract says instead of $50k a year you get paid $500k a year or $5k a year, then the entire thing is void as it's an obvious error.
If the contract says $55k and the company wanted to pay you $45k.. their problem, contract counts. Your boss might be pissed if you keep insisting on the $55k and might fire you, especially if you verbally agreed on $45k. But oh well, that's another topic.
Oh and in the UK? The employer is even allowed to deduct that money from your future wages. So much about knowing the law :)
Looks like it's not quite that simple in the UK.
https://realemploymentlawadvice.co.uk/2021/01/28/can-my-employer-make-me-pay-back-overpaid-wages/
Yeah.. except for that tiny detail:
There are three conditions that must be satisfied for the defence to be applicable:
- You employer has made a statement of fact which made you believe that the money was your own;
- You acted in good faith and without knowledge of any claim for recovery from your employer and as a result, changed your position in terms of the money; and
- You were not involved in the cause of the overpayment.
So if you signed a contract for a sum of x and the employer never said they are going to pay you more, you're already acting in bad faith based on the first point. The second point is tough to argue, literally the only way to win this is if you have a verbal "contract" only and claim you never watched your bank account and just didn't notice the extra money (but then if your employer tells you about the wrong payments you have an issue again..).
In the real world you'll probably pay the money back 99% of the time, except if you want to burn bridges and leave (going after you for smaller amounts is not worth the time in court). Your professional relationship will be ruined though, which you may or may not care about.
In California at least, they're allowed to ask, but I don't think they're allowed to require.
Meanwhile if they verbally promise you a raise and don't give it to you there's jack shit you can do because verbal agreements aren't enforcable when it's convenient for them.
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(Should be “cue the company” not queue)
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As business barons are fond of saying, verbal agreements are only worth the paper they're printed on.
This is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
42, but what was the question again?
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
In the event that they do require the employee to pay it all back, what I would have done was try to make the original wage work on the budget and stash the other £18k into low risk index funds to get some dividends and increased return. That way if paying it back were necessary, you'd at least make some money from the excess capital.
If the paperwork says £42k then not much the company could possibly argue.
True. Legally binding contacts definitely supersede their vocal claims to the contrary.
Thats the part where an employee should do what employers do all day every day like breathing: lie your ass off.
"I recall the verbal agreement being for 42k, just as it is in the contract. Stop lying."
Probably should look for other work once the error found out though regardless of how you handle it. They'll invent a reason to fire you for failing to be a good lil wage slave, cowering and signing an hr document obligating you to pay the difference back. A month later it will be some "not a team player" dismissal.
Fortunately though, it might never be discovered. Corporate malice is matched only by corporate incompetence.
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