Ignoring artists ends up with tech bros creating the torment nexus… need a little of both.
this post was submitted on 30 Mar 2025
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Ah, but would the tech bros have come up with the torment nexus if not for the classic sci-fi novel Don't Create The Torment Nexus?
If you’ve never heard of a starving craftsman, you haven’t met many craftsmen. Also, most artists have day jobs.
First off its a huge stretch to call programmers 'craftsman' in any traditional sense.
No, sitting at home on your ass, in underwear, while tippy tapping on a keyboard writing up python functions to parse a database is simply not equivalent to assembling an actual functional object or processing system with metal, wood, wire, bolts and hand tool.
You can be smug about getting paid bank for tapping the keyboard at home, but dont try to convince yourself the white collar work is the same as hard body destroying trades blue collar through word appropriation. I bet youve never even pulled a sliver out your hand with tweezers, never got a friction blister from torque, not even one little cosmetic scar from a minor nick. Your hands are petite and unsullied as a baby, look at you.
Even if it was appropriate, youve never heard of a starving 'craftsman'(programmer)? How about being jobless after constant downsizing and layoffs?
The rest of the talking points boil down to yum-yum feel good 'work hard and perpetually learn on the job (proper training? Aint nobody got time for that) Apply yourself and you'll be successful! Dont be lured by promotions or new job opportunities remember you work to enjoy your work and grow your skills not to make money!'
Thats a okay attitude for apprentices but once you actually have some work experience this reads as nothing short of corporate propaganda masquerading as generic apprenticeship motivational advice.
LOOK AT YOU, BABYHANDS
People need art, do not fall for the trap that economically unprofitable things are unneeded things.
@[email protected] Although I don't believe people need "new" art, I agree that art can fulfill a "spiritual" hole in people's lives. But I don't think that's exactly the same...
Culture without art is barely culture at all. im not sure how anyone actually seriously gets the idea they rarely interact with art or that it's unimportant.
@[email protected] The number of people who gain a living as plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and locksmiths is way higher than the number of people who people who gain a living as artists. Unfortunately, that is the truth.
People need art, do not fall for the trap that economically unprofitable things are unneeded things.
Got some numbers to back that up at all, or just gut feelings?
It would also depend on your definition of "artist". There is a lot of art going on in things like comics, movies, TV shows, video games, toys, board games, and so on. Writing can also be considered an art form, and not just the fancy stuff like poetry. What about musicians, are they artists? Acting is also an art form, and there are tons of those kicking about.
I personally think it's a pointless comparison over number of trades people vs number of career artists. We need both. Without trades we don't have a place to live, and without art the place we live in sucks. I'm not as concerned as to which group is bigger. Like, there will be a natural balance somewhere depending on the wants/needs of the society at the time. Kinda like the whole deer vs wolves thing (I am not trying to imply that trades or artists are preying upon one another).
@Alabaster_[email protected] I think what the author wants to state - and I agree with - is that it's way more difficult to earn a living as an artist than as an craftsman. Unfortunately, that is a fact. It's extremely difficult to survive as an artist. And only the real talented ones can gather a high enough number of fans to sustain their work.
My problem is the "way higher" bit without anything other than "trust me bro" to back it up. I do not disagree that being an artist can be financially difficult, but such an absurd statement should come with some data to back it up I think. You're also claiming it's a fact. Got anything to back that up?
I find the argument absurd for two reasons:
-
There are millions of employed artists in the US. This number doesn't mean much without knowing the total number of artists trying to get work. If we look at unemployment rates, artists were sitting around 3.9% in 2022 and construction was between 3.4% and 7.1% in 2022. Pretty close if you ask me.
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Without disclaimers, it almost implies getting and keeping a trades job is easy. The various trades industries can be volatile as heck, and tools are expensive. Tradies have their own difficulties they have to overcome.
Edit for transparency:
Using the numbers from the construction link, we can math out that there were about 9.3 million employed construction workers in 2022 compared to the 2.67 million artists.
If you're just looking for raw numbers then this could constitute as "way more". I don't think it's a fair comparison however. See my above comment re: wolves and deer. If you compare the total number of nuclear physicists to the total number of garbage men, then it looks like trying to be a nuclear physicist is a bad move (absolutely nothing wrong with garbage collection as a career).
The ebb and flow of things kinda regulates how many people are "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to be employed in an industry. I think a much better and more fair comparison is the unemployment rate.
@Alabaster_[email protected] In my country, Portugal, and in most countries of the world, artists can barely survive. Just look at job boards such as LinkedIn and compare the average remuneration offered to an artist - designer, musician, painter, video maker - to the average remuneration of a plumber. And also don't forget to compare the gross number of job ads.
Cool. Got something to back that up?
I am in no way refuting that it can be hard for artists to make enough money to survive. My main gripe is all these baseless claims y'all are making.
Yes, it can be hard to make it as an artist. Is it impossible? The numbers suggest it is not. If you have reputable data to the contrary then bring it to the table.
@Alabaster_[email protected] I just quoted an article that was authored by Robert Delwood. I don't have to justify anything. I don't own you a detailed empirical study of my position, sorry.
Gotcha, nothing is your responsibility. I'm just saying that if you make claims like this:
in most countries of the world, artists can barely survive
Then you should probably have more than gut feelings to back that up. Like, that's a pretty wild claim to pull out of thin air. Sure, you don't really owe anyone justification for that, but you're not doing yourself any favors by tucking and rolling away as soon as you're challenged.
@Alabaster_[email protected] OK, smart ass. Here's a little conversation I had with Gemini 2.5 LLM from Google about this topic. It's backed up with official sources: https://aistudio.google.com/app/prompts?state=%7B%22ids%22:%5B%221B0JecBTkQJ9wVjOnhM81piNPjrq3QbzU%22%5D,%22action%22:%22open%22,%22userId%22:%22113653798100742351191%22,%22resourceKeys%22:%7B%7D%7D&usp=sharing. Are you satisfied?
Smartass? We going ad hominem now? I'm sorry, you want to just come out and say absurd things and never be challenged? Don't want your feelings hurt or something? Sucks for you I guess.
Okay, I'll bite. First thing first: It is absolutely hilarious to me that, when pressed to defend your position, you turn to a robot to do your work for you. Is this the leisurely future automation has promised us?
From your link:
Can you tell me if, in the USA, the average artist earns more per year than the average craftsmen (plumber, electrician, carpenter, locksmith, etc.)?
This is not what I was asking you to back up. You said artists struggle to survive, not that they make more than tradespeople. You thought you could get away with that, didn't ya? Unfortunately for you my ass is smart.
Here are a few passages from your favorite study buddy:
Remember, median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount, and half earned less. It's often considered a better representation of the "typical" wage than the mean (average), especially in fields with very high earners that can skew the average upwards.
And
Important Note: The OOH page itself notes, "Because fine artists often work on commission or are self-employed, their earnings may be inconsistent." This median figure can be influenced by high earners and doesn't fully capture the income precarity many fine artists face. Many earn significantly less or rely on other income sources.
I agree with the first claim about median wage, but the robot seems to contradict itself in the second point. A minority of extremely high earners, like Hollywood superstars, shouldn't skew the median. If they got paid closer to but still above the median then nothing would change. They'd still be in the upper half. Median is fun that way.
Contradictions like this are something to be aware of. That, and that chatbots are prone to hallucinations, make results like this a bit dubious. I don't know how bad Gemini is these days, nor am I going to look it up right now, but this is just a problem to be aware of. It is good that it provided sources though.
Onto the "struggling to survive" bit. That's a statement that is open to interpretation. For this argument I will first assume that means they are making less than a livable wage. Here's the NASDAQ researching livable wages. Living wages seem to be between $61,842 and $148,683.
Gemini states the median annual wages for various trades are between $59,620 and $61,550. Various artist careers have median annual wages between $44,030 and $61,280. Looks like everyone is struggling to survive. This just shows that the US is seemingly an overpriced hellhole, and I am glad I do not live there.
The NASDAQ does, however, have a generous definition of living wage:
“Living wage” is defined as the income required to cover 50% of necessities, 30% discretionary/luxury spending and 20% for savings.
I personally interpret "surviving" as covering your living expenses , and maybe having a bit left over for leisure activities like movies and such. If I cut "Living wage" down to mean 80% for necessities and 20% for whatever else then I get a living wage between $38,661 and $92,926. That's only my interpretation though. Feel free to do your own.
My math was this:
Living wage = (NASDAQ ÷ 2) ÷ 0.8 = NASDAQ ÷ 1.6
My reasoning is that the NASDAQ wage is 50% essentials, so if you cut it in half you get only the essentials. Then, I want the essentials to take up 80% of the total wage, so I divide it by 80%. Boom: a "Barely Living" wage.
So, in conclusion, it looks like artists do not "struggle to survive". Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
Meanwhile I went to art school and make more than the engineers around me who seem to keep writing code to only fix the bugs of the prior code they wrote…it’s a fun treadmill. Like a car engine that’s perpetually broke and will always need a mechanic… but at the end of the day I get to go home.