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Moderator Guidelines
Tank-ism is basically the fanboy equivalent of politics.
They criticize right wing states and fail to see the failure of left wing states.
It's the inverse of MAGAites.
Tankies and MAGAites want you in the same concentration camps except they call them different names and they do it for different reasons.
There is no one conversation you can have or argument or proof you can present that will convince them. People unfortunately don't work like that. The more invested they are in their position the more difficult it will be to get them out. Your best bet is to not push them out, but point out capitalist and unethical positions of both russia and china, without letting such a convo devolve into too much of an argument.
Keep in mind that both china and russia are capitalist nations. Both have hierarchical businesses with managers and bosses, and both suppress unions and workers rights. They might not believe you if you tell them this as they seem to conflate being not aligned with the west makes you anti-imperialist which they conflate with being anti-capitalist. They might also claim that these nations aren't socialist but transitioning into socialism so any failure to meet the definition of socialism is excusable in their eyes.
Going all in on lots of proof is either going to give them a lot to think about or more likely will just have them dismiss everything you have to say to them and have them write you off as someone who is emotional and gullible (they might believe any evidence you present is capitalist propaganda).
The best best bet is being someone they respect who they view as very knowledgeable telling them they are wrong, someone capable of providing historical sources etc.
Convincing them that russia sucks should be easier than changing their position on china, at least if they are even slightly reasonable. Might be possible to change their mind on china as well if your angle is that china is a disappointment when it comes to socialism, but I dunno. I've never convinced a tankie before.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a nice reply. I hope to have good news soon.
this series of video essays ("the state is counter revolutionary") makes a lot of good arguments against authoritarian leftism and states, towards why they are not a path to communism but a hurdle. i doubt someone who has already fallen into the trap of authoritarianism will watch these videos with an open mind but maybe you could watch them urself and integrate some of the arguments into your intervention.
tankies think that whatever states they simp for are better than the US, because they wont admit any of the flaws of these states in the first place. their entire narrative is that the flaws of these states are made up as anti-communist red scare propaganda. so they are very good at rationalising any arguments against them.
i do not know how to convince tankies, but its great that you are trying :)
Thanks for the recommendation.
Have you considered presenting them stateless alternative leftist schools of thought? Maybe they think authoritarianism is the only way to have a leftist society
Sounds like they're deep, probably too far to be reached by someone online, they need actual deprogramming and it's almost impossible to do online. It's why I've mostly given up on trying to seriously debate them and conservatives online and try to focus on "early intervention and containment" lmao
That being said I've made fantastic progress on some conservative family members IRL, if you know this person IRL, you have a shot.
This all came up after I mentioned the tankie triad,
I'm not sure I would be able to keep a straight face if someone said "the tankie triad" to me in real life.
they say that any movement to the left is better than capitalism, even if it’s Russia
This person thinks that Russia isn't capitalistic and is somehow "left", kinda sounds like they're already a tankie. It's going to be almost impossible to talk them out of that.
I desperately want to try, so any help would be appreciated.
They said since I wasn't able to explain to them what was wrong with the ideology and the moderation on those instances to their liking, they didn't see any problem.
Find out what evidence they would accept that their view is wrong.
Then deliver.
Unfortunately, there’s a chance they’ll move the goalpost at that point. Then you’ll know that reasoning isn’t the solution.
They said they didn't see the moderation abuse I was purporting for one, and they weren't just going to take my word for it.
This is one of those cases where you can't use logic to talk someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get into, it's probably going to take an emotional appeal. Also try not to be confrontational, attacking their beliefs might just cause them to get defensive and shut down processing what you say.
Your friend would have to give a shit about one's freedom of speech, though if they have no issue with how Russia and China handle those issues, they likely already think that a state suppressing it's peoples' ability to protest is sometimes good.
It's also a red flag that they would say "whatever Russia and China does, it's certainly not worse than what Capitalist nations do". We all agree that what Capitalist imperialism does is fucked up beyond measure. Russia and China did/do things that were/are unacceptably fucked up, and saying 'still better than capitalism' is a smokescreen to skirt around an objective conversation about how terrible those actions taken still are.
You're friend's a tankie. They're likely already down the pipeline. How you handle them IRL is up to you, but I personally would not continue interacting with them, for my own mental health.