this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/4262252

A combination of good high-speed internet coverage, high digital literacy rates, large rural populations and fast-growing fintech industries had put the Nordic neighbours on a fast track to a future without cash.

[...]

But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and a subsequent rise in cross-border hybrid warfare and cyber-attacks blamed on pro-Russia groups have prompted a rethink.

[...]

The Swedish government has since completely overhauled its defence and preparedness strategy, joining Nato, starting a new form of national service and reactivating its psychological defence agency to combat disinformation from Russia and other adversaries. Norway has tightened controls on its previously porous border with Russia.

[...]

[Norway's] justice and public security ministry said it “recommends everyone keep some cash on hand due to the vulnerabilities of digital payment solutions to cyber-attacks”. It said the government took preparedness seriously “given the increasing global instability with war, digital threats, and climate change. As a result, they’ve ensured that the right to pay with cash is strengthened”.

[...]

(page 2) 50 comments
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[–] [email protected] 4 points 17 hours ago

I hoped for a second they meant moneyless.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 day ago (7 children)

The risk of the payment system getting shut down and people being unable to make payments for a while is real. And it is one good reason to be less reliant on digital payments.

But there is also the risk of bad actors, which could also be e.g. Russia, getting access to decades of payment history through a hack, if everything is digital. Having that data for every citizen of a country could enable efficient profiling of people in the country using big data analysis technologies.

The kind of thing you could find out with the transaction data is who are working in the military or security police, who is sympathetic to Russia and at the same time vulnerable to work with foreign governments, and potential blackmailing material relating to people in these or other groups. I'm sure the analysts working for the bad actor can come up with even more useful things to look for in the data.

There are of course a lot of other data sources that bad actors are interested in and that are easier to hack, but the financial history seems more comprehensive source of information than most other ones.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago

It already happened in Ukraine during the NotPetya attack by Russia in 2017

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Ukraine_ransomware_attacks

[–] [email protected] 5 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

The risk of the payment system getting shut down and people being unable to make payments for a while is real. And it is one good reason to be less reliant on digital payments.

Or entities. The USA had a brief oil crisis recently because one of the major pipeline companies had their billing system hacked. Since the company couldn't verify whether someone had paid, they just didn't supply any oil.

Couple that with some misleading news stories and social media panic, and it blew up into a proper shortage from people hoarding all the petrol, and leaving none left.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Do you have any more info about this?

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[–] 0x0 4 points 19 hours ago

Having that data for every citizen of a country could enable efficient profiling of people in the country using big data analysis technologies.

You don't need an external actor for that, a government can very well do that to their citizens...

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 21 hours ago (5 children)

GNU Taler to the rescue!

The netherlands are already looking into it: https://www.ngi.eu/ngi-projects/ngi-taler/

The project could be used via paper trail, as far as I understand it.

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[–] kn0wmad1c 41 points 1 day ago (4 children)

In America, you can't open a bank account without an address. That means that the homeless population can't open a bank account (not easily, anyway), and therefore can't get a debit card.

Cashless is a nice idea, but it is extremely prohibitive against the most vulnerable people (which, sadly, might be part of the point).

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

It's largely a non-issue in the Nordic countries as you basically have to voluntarily opt out of any government aid programs to be homeless, which understandably most don't. This goes for most, if not all, vulnerable groups; most of the help is decently robust, at least enough to keep you fed and in housing. So I don't think it's a very large portion of the consideration, almost everything is paid via mobile pay, checks (any, not just from working) are all done digitally as well.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

In Germany any EU resident has a right to a basic account, in case you're homeless you should have an address because you're in a shelter, if you insist on sleeping rough (or the municipality is just too fucked up, happens in places) you can give the address of a social work organisation (those are all over also doing debtor counselling and a lot of other stuff).

Only valid reason for a bank to refuse basic business is if you tried to defraud them. They don't have to give you a credit line, but they do have to accept your money, store it, and let you wire it (incl. POS payments etc).

Identity fraud is not an issue because they'll want to see a proper ID which, if you're legally in the country, you have.

It's less about paying, though, you can always pay with cash in Germany, it's about the welfare authorities not wanting to handle cash and cheques only if actually necessary.

[–] 0x0 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

in case you’re homeless you should have an address because you’re in a shelter

No homeless person left behind? Shelters for 100% of homeless people at all times?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

You have a legal right to shelter, yes. How is that controversial it's a human right.

[–] 0x0 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

The controversial part is that while it's great and desirable on paper, it's almost never the case for 100% of the times. Great if it is though.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Affordable housing and the threat by malicious actors to attack digital payment systems are two different things. Homelessness has to be addressed, of course, but we are dealing here with something else.

[–] 0x0 6 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

You seem to have missed the point: in many countries, access to a bank account (therefore digital money) is not universal.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 18 hours ago

I didn't miss the point, but this is a different topic. We need to provide housing, end homelessness and possibly the right to a bank account for everyone. These are different things.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's funny because actually you can receive mails pretty much everywhere without giving an actual address. P.O boxes and post restante. Only banks keep enforcing residential addresses as it was a guarantee of having lack of identity frauds.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 hours ago

t was a guarantee of having lack of identity frauds

I don't think that's true, it's just indicative of someone who's more stable. That said, I can put down anyone's addresses and have mail sent to it, my family does it all the time (e.g. my SIL just got married, and they sent their combined bank statements to our house while they were finding a new apartment). All it means is that you can receive mail at a certain address, and that can be as simple as knowing the mail schedule and getting to the mailbox before the residents do (or going through their trash the next day if you miss it).

It's technically illegal, but I've never heard of anyone getting charged w/ accessing someone else's mailbox... So it's a pretty low barrier for someone actually committing identity fraud to clear, and a pretty steep barrier for someone who is homeless.

[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 day ago (9 children)

As much as I hate using cash, I understand that the credit card companies charge ridiculous fees to businesses and also that people with very low income don't always have access to digital forms of payment. Maybe Sweden does better with equipping their entire society with digital tools, but in the US I don't think we are ready for a fully digital payment society.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I don't like using cashless anything because I know part of the cost is my privacy. Having said that, convenience is a powerful draw and cash can be a pain, especially when you have to find a spot for small coins.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Look into Monero. You get the benefits of digital payments, but you get the privacy of cash.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I use monero online and cash offline, because no one accepts monero offline.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

because no one accepts monero offline.

With the XMRBazaar map this may change

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 day ago (2 children)

nobody should be including apple or google spy apps in their payment processing

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If you are using Mastercard in the US, Google will be getting transaction data all the same: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45368040

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

In the EU and UK, heavy regulation, especially of Visa and MasterCard, means the fees are actually lower than the costs of handling cash. Lots of businesses want only card transactions because it works out better for them and most people don't carry any cash so that need to offer card payments, and so it makes even less sense to offer both methods. The only industries who like cash are likely trying some form of tax evasion.

Cleverly, they banned businesses from charging any payment fees and suddenly, businesses negotiated and found suppliers offering low payment fees. We don't have anything like these convenience fees for paying with cards over cheque that I hear about.

Amex still charges higher fees so many places still don't take those cards. The value of benefits (air miles, cashback) have gone down significantly but in reality, it was essentially transferring wealth from the poor (who could never get these cards) to the rich, through these fees, so works out better overall.

The banks here advertise that they help everyone get bank accounts and social benefits are paid into bank accounts so I assume everyone is able to get an account. However, I do wonder if some people, especially the homeless, slip through the cracks.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago

It's extremely disappointing to me (admittedly in the US) that Covid seems to have obliterated any chance for a large-scale investigation on payment processors' stranglehold on our financial systems. The fees that Visa/Mastercard/etc. charge, especially for tiny merchants with insanely low transaction numbers, are criminal.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 day ago (1 children)

there haven't been card fees for end users in Sweden for many years. handling cash is a lot more expensive since you need somewhere secure to keep change, you loose time at the till handling the money, and you need to pay for someone to come pick it up. the time gained from just having the customers pay with card means businesses gladly swallow the fees.

and yes, i'm always surprised when going abroad how much more analog everything is. the nordics and Baltic's are generally at about the same level (with Estonia way ahead), but the rest of the continent feels like it's 10 years behind. I was once asked if I really wanted to pay with card in a corner shop in Leipzig, since the card fee was €10.

not that i'm a fan of the digitalisation, it makes marginalised groups even more marginalised. i see my elderly relatives struggling with it often.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (6 children)

Noone uses cash in Sweden, except for maybe drug dealers and super old people(and the occasional tourist). Most businesses dont even accept cash anymore.

It isnt just the convenience of not having to carry cash, it is also much safer. Much lower risk of getting robbed, for both individuals and businesses.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Cash is still used a lot. Especially for second hand small purchases. Not everyone wants to do the PayPal dance at a car boot.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Never once seen anyone use PayPal for that, Swish is the most common (in Sweden at least) and there are many alternatives which are just as easy.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 17 hours ago

In Finland we use MobilePay for that. Rarely cash.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Much lower risk of getting robbed

Maybe that works in Sweden, but in other places you get shot if you're not carrying money with you 😅

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think those places need more support systems to reduce the number of people that becomes desperate enough to do that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 17 hours ago

We have plenty of support systems, but we have too much corruption. I think we're working on that now with our first female prez.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 day ago (2 children)

We have cash?

o_O

Haven't used it for years.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (8 children)

It's still legal tender so they have to accept it. They don't like it, but they do. Last time I visited Norway I held up the line at the grocery store trying to buy candy with cash that had been gifted to me. I'm not sure the cashier knew what to do with it.

Edit: many people telling me they are not required. From what I could find, cash is still "tvunget betalingsmiddel", but there are some broad exceptions. Ref. So, I don't think I was out of line expecting to pay cash at the grocery store. However, that was the only time I paid cash when I visited last time, so yeah, it's basically cashless already.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Sweden is otherwise cool with having a zero privacy payment system? I'm a little Suprised this made it that far even there. When I see a business that says it does not accept cash, I stay away even if I wasn't planning to use cash anyway.

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