this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2024

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296

You choose, even when you don't vote (lemmy.blahaj.zone)

submitted 5 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

364 comments fedilink hide all child comments

https://midwest.social/post/18536008
Edit of yesterday's meme with accounted for non-voters

(page 8) 37 comments

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (44 children)

I'll be honest, I'm not planning to vote. Though if I did, it would most certainly not be for the orange man.

I don't care to sign up for potential jury duty some random day.
I do not care to vote for anyone with religious motivations.
I don't care to vote for anyone with their head stuck in other countries' business.
I'd much rather vote for someone that actually has our country first and foremost.
Honestly I feel ashamed to even be born in a country that hocks weapons like candy.

I could go on, but when I feel the election is like choosing between the lesser of two evils, then I choose not to vote for either evil.

Too bad there isn't a clear better candidate in the lead.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago

It should be giving the choice to a Nazi.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (5 children)

In one image, show us you don't understand the philosophical problem.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (6 children)

The philosophical problem is more a game theory one. You are participating in a limited outcome, constrained system. Depending on where you live, non participation results in a trump win.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I wasn't trying to make the US election into a philosophical problem, because Trump winning will have serious global consequences, regardless of how immoral voting for Democrats might be.

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[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 days ago (3 children)

The 'philosophical problem' with tankies trading people's lives to teach a politician a lesson?

Wow what a great sense of morality you have.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago

The meme hasn't been about the philosophical problem in a long time.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (3 children)

When people are insisting that "Doing nothing is choosing NEITHER track!", sometimes a less subtle approach is needed.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (6 children)

Meh. Voting dems is doing effectively nothing. People have been voting for them for decades and you still ended up supporting genocide and one step away from fascism. Do literally anything else instead which is not begging politicians or rich people in one way or another.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Meh. Voting dems is doing effectively nothing. People have been voting for them for decades and you still ended up supporting genocide and one step away from fascism.

Oh, okay, so let's just let that last step happen. It's effectively nothing, right?

Do literally anything else instead which is not begging politicians or rich people in one way or another.

You do realize that 'anything else instead' will be harder under a fascist regime, right?

Even if you think this is nothing but buying time, buy it. Hastening the arrival of fascism isn't exactly good praxis.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Oh, okay, so let’s just let that last step happen. It’s effectively nothing, right?

You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.

You do realize that ‘anything else instead’ will be harder under a fascist regime, right?

If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better. But most voters will go "oh well, we tried" and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why you're at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.

Even if you think this is nothing but buying time, buy it. Hastening the arrival of fascism isn’t exactly good praxis.

Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy. I'm not saying to hasten fascism. I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesn't matter.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (8 children)

You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.

It quite literally is, unless you think there's no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.

Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening, even if it doesn't solve the long-term problems leading to it. Patching up a hole in one's gut may not solve the autoimmune disorder that's killing you, but it'll prevent you from dying in a more immediate sense.

If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better.

... all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?

Most people in this country don't even bother to vote regularly. Those that do often put no more effort into their vote than a day at the polling station based on a few caught glimpses of the political realities of this country.

What level of effort is that going to translate into direct action? You're looking at people entered into a 100-meter sprint, nearly half of whom decided to drop out before even beginning, with many of those who've finished are bitching about how long it was, and saying "If they put that effort into an ultramarathon, THEN we would really be getting somewhere!"

But most voters will go “oh well, we tried” and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why you’re at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.

Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?

Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy.

Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn't magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.

I’m not saying to hasten fascism.

Really? Because I would think that a literal fascist and his cronies being put into executive power might hasten fascism a tiny bit.

I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesn’t matter.

So you do think that there's no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It quite literally is, unless you think there’s no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.

Ultimately, there's no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as we've seen in all the past elections.

Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening,

You're not. You're just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say "well, better than bullets at least."

… all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?

If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved people's lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesn't do shit, nobody gives a shit.

Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?

More. In fact, I think you're one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.

Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn’t magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.

You won't though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing that's just around the corner. You don't buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.

So you do think that there’s no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?

Ultimately there's no difference for your society no. You'll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

Ultimately, there’s no difference who wins this election.

Oh, cool, I'll remember this if Trump wins and we're in line for the camps together. "Ha ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?"

You’re not. You’re just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say “well, better than bullets at least.”

Okay. Let's go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?

More. In fact, I think you’re one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.

You think... the US... is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.

Check, please!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Oh, cool, I’ll remember this if Trump wins and we’re in line for the camps together.

You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.

Okay. Let’s go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?

None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they're not using a .50 cal.

You think… the US… is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.

Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You should probably resist that…

My guy, I'm a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I'm not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I'm not going to outshoot anyone when I'm recruited for the anarchist militia.

Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it's erecting death camps might be a good idea?

None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they’re not using a .50 cal.

So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?

You're continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that "Killing yourself faster" IS less desirable than "Killing yourself slower", even using the assumptions in your own argument.

Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.

Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

My guy, I’m a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I’m not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I’m not going to outshoot anyone when I’m recruited for the anarchist militia.

There's plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn't mean "take a rifle and fight". It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.

If you wait until you're led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it's (probably) too late.

Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s erecting death camps might be a good idea?

The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.

4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: "Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?"

And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you'll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows...

You’re continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that “Killing yourself faster” IS less desirable than “Killing yourself slower”, even using the assumptions in your own argument.

Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going "But if I don't choose the knife, they might pull out a gun." Instead of asking yourself "why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer". Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.

Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?

Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn't actively fascist.

Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you're personally being led to the pit?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (15 children)

There’s plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn’t mean “take a rifle and fight”. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.

When we're at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I'm pretty sure that 'supporting my fellow humans' isn't what's going to keep me out of the camps.

If you wait until you’re led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it’s (probably) too late.

If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently 'pure' in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.

4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: “Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?”

Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it's even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.

The state hasn't 'fallen' to this point. That we're even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.

And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you’ll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows…

Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we're descending into fascism from, right?

Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can't possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.

Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going “But if I don’t choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.” Instead of asking yourself “why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer”.

Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.

Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn’t actively fascist.

...

Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more 'fascist', in your view, back then?

Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you’re personally being led to the pit?

My guy, I'm entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.

My message is not "Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions". My message is "For fuck's sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE"

You want to talk long-term plans? I'm game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I'm game to talk. But none of that contradicts "Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power" or "Fascism is BAD for organizing".

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

But doing nothing in this comic defaults to only Palestine being run over, whereas turning the lever runs over LGBTQIA+, Ukraine, abortion rights, BLM, and Palestine.

It should be the other way around - inaction kills all the minorities by letting the GOP win, and pulling the lever switches the track to only kill Palestine by voting for Dems and denying GOP a default win.

It's an awkward comic either way, because Palestine is much worse off under Trump and the comic doesn't make it easy to represent this (let alone a kind of double identity, of Palestine being on both tracks - maybe Palestine needs to be really tall and laid over both tracks).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Doing nothing results in taking the Moral High track, which loops around to the top track.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (3 children)

yeah, I'm an idiot 😭

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Nah. Usually this problem has two tracks. I can see why you overlooked it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago

that's sweet of you, lol

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Doing nothing is implied to go down the middle here, I'm pretty sure, which results in everyone getting run over.

More realistically, Palestine would be laid down on the track before the fork, with the Trump track looping around to run over Palestine a second time.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 days ago (3 children)

from Wikipedia

Reversing the points under a moving train will almost always derail the train.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Cool, so, inside that trolley are also all the issues listed there who will die if it's derailed, because anyone who thinks that a revolution will be communist led and bloodless hasn't spent more than ten minutes in this fucking country.

Sorry you want a revolution without doing the hard work of actually establishing the popular basis for one.

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