Every US President gets to try to start one war in the Middle East. Biden was planning on saving it for his second term, but, you know.
this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
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I really don't think Israel is going to be a deciding factor in this election. Both parties support Israel (so it's not a point of differentiation between the two parties/candidates) and most Americans don't know or care about what's going in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, etc.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/13/politics/israel-iran-antimissile-system-us-troops/index.html
The US will send an advanced anti-missile system — and US troops to operate it — to Israel “to help bolster Israel’s air defenses following Iran’s unprecedented attacks against Israel on April 13 and again on October 1,” the Pentagon said Sunday.
Literally range defensive tools to save civilian lives. We are deploying anti-missile tech to prevent deaths from rockets, and we need to deploy the personnel trained to manage those advanced tools because they are needed now, not 6 months from now when locals can be trained to operate them.
Approximately 100 US troops are deploying to Israel to operate the THAAD battery, according to a US defense official. It is rare for US troops to deploy inside Israel, but this is a typical number of troops to operate the anti-missile defense system.
So which one is it? We want Biden to protect civilians in the region... or maybe not when the civilians being protected are people from Israel. Once again, the Hamas-indoctrinated tiktokers showing their colors.
Also, in case it's getting lost in the fog of BS in this sub: Iran is literally shooting rockets at Israel cities right now. Real war-class rockets that Israel can't stop reliably because their tech is not advanced enough for ballistics of this nature. Where are all the "Biden should protect the civilians" people now?
Maybe Isntreal should'nt attack its neighbors if they don't want to be shot at?
If you can’t acknowledge that Israel is a country then you will keep being ignored.
Please grow up
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/13/politics/israel-iran-antimissile-system-us-troops/index.html
The US will send an advanced anti-missile system — and US troops to operate it — to Israel “to help bolster Israel’s air defenses following Iran’s unprecedented attacks against Israel on April 13 and again on October 1,” the Pentagon said Sunday.
Literally range defensive tools to save civilian lives. We are deploying anti-missile tech to prevent deaths from rockets, and we need to deploy the personnel trained to manage those advanced tools because they are needed now, not 6 months from now when locals can be trained to operate them.
Approximately 100 US troops are deploying to Israel to operate the THAAD battery, according to a US defense official. It is rare for US troops to deploy inside Israel, but this is a typical number of troops to operate the anti-missile defense system.
So which one is it? We want Biden to protect civilians in the region... or maybe not when the civilians being protected are people from Israel. Once again, the Hamas-indoctrinated tiktokers showing their colors.
Also, in case it's getting lost in the fog of BS in this sub: Iran is literally shooting rockets at Israel cities right now. Real war-class rockets that Israel can't stop reliably because their tech is not advanced enough for ballistics of this nature. Where are all the "Biden should protect the civilians" people now?
None of which would be necessary in the first place if Israel would stop murdering everyone around them in the first place. Not that I am defending the acts of Hamas and Iran against Israel, but de-escalation does not seem like something Netanyahu and his cronies are interested in. And it shouldn't come as a surprise that years of aggression and violence are met with violence.
Don't try to spread misinformation. Iran has shot those missiles on military facilities after the invasion of Lebanon by the Israeli troops, they are not shooting it right now. (Not a single israeli casualty was recorded.) Biden should protect the civilians of Palestine and Lebanon by not facilitating genocide. Keep your dog on leash when it keeps biting the neighbours.
Misinforming while talking about misinformation. Par for course around these parts.
No casualties from 180 Iran rockets for mainly 2 reason:
-
Israel is used to the bellicose nature of all their murderous neighbors, so they have a strong culture of bomb shelters. 10 million Israel civilians were on bomb shelter alert that day.
-
Israel had help from allies to defend from Iran's rockets.
The US is on record as having shot down rockets that Israel couldn't deal with. This is why we have our warships nearby, to protect civilians. And also why we are sending more anti-missile tech. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyv0ne41pzo
And it is said that Jordan used their tech to shoot down some Iranian rockets to help protect Israel's civilians when they saw the trajectory of the rockets. This wouldn't be a first for Jordan, they had to get involved in April against another Iranian attack https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/17/middleeast/jordan-walks-a-tightrope-after-downing-iranian-drones-and-missiles/index.html
Also, perhaps I missed it, but I did not catch in your comment any relief that Israel civilians were spared horrors thanks to the quick actions of anti-missile efforts. Somebody might mistake your rhetoric for that of the Hamas-indoctrinated fucktards around these parts that speak in Hamas talking points and celebrate terrorism and genocide when the target is Israel.
Those warships could've been used for intercepting Israeli missiles that could have saved many more civilians life, more than 40k. But those warships are not for civilian safety instead they are for ensuring safety of a regime while they commit genocide.
I'm sorry, but you don't understand how any of this works.
The terrorist Hamas organization is embedded in Gaza as the ruling authority. The only way to pry them out is to have fighting where they hide, which is in civilian buildings in Gaza. Hamas does that on purpose, so that the only way to fight them is to bomb Gaza buildings like hospitals. Hamas is trying to get as many of their own people in Gaza killed as possible, so people like you watch their tiktok propaganda and repeat their talking points. There were 4 million people in Gaza at the start of the conflict, and by Hamas' own numbers, there have been about 1% total deaths including Hamas' own warriors. In the US, we lost nearly that many people to Trump's mismanagement of Covid-19.
Iran is bombing Israel with ballistic missiles. They did not issue warnings to civilians like Israel does, or use bombs of limited power like Israel does, or answer to the Western alliance like Israel does.
I know this doesn't match your propaganda worldview, but the US is trying to reduce damage and prevent war in the region. What you call a "genocide" against Hamas-controlled territory is the tip of the iceberg of the damage to civilians that could spread if we let Iran and Israel go at each other with full-scale war, while Hamas continues to attempt to exterminate every Israeli on the planet.
The reason my elected officials like Biden don't listen to your strategy, is that your strategy is paper thin and has no merit. They are busy trying to solve complex multi-actor problems with very serious repercussions, not consuming Hamas propaganda on tiktok.
- From your point, Hamas is hiding in all buildings that's why Israel bombed several cities that killed thousands of civilians. (which is a war crime - you are not allowed to bomb buildings in which hostages/civilians are there)
- Again propaganda, Iran retaliated for the second time after Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Don't use the words of war accelerationists like "Iran is bombing", Israeli military facilities were bombed and Iran's operation is done. (Not like israel, who creates safe-zones in Gaza then they bomb the civilians)
- Elected president Biden is trying to accelerate the conflict by sending Israel more armaments and funds which will result in more civilian deaths. It will not in anyway help end conflict with Iran.
What kind of fucking moron tells themselves they're going to vote for Trump because Harris might continue to support Israel? Trump would be far, far worse for Gaza.
Hey mod - why remove my comment?
What kind of fucking moron tells themselves they're going to vote for Trump because Harris might continue to support Israel?
What kind of fucking moron tells themselves that the quickest way to keep Trump out of power is to try and persuade thousands of "fucking morons" not to be morons anymore, rather than persuade one rational and intelligent strategy team to change policy?
It's the sickening how you sycophants will hold nothing back in abuse toward you fellow citizens (whose vote you'd presumably like), but defend to the hilt every decision of your cult leaders.
And you wonder why America gets Trump?
I agree but reality is voting third party is never going to teach DNC anything right now. So long as the GOP exists they will do something dumb again in 4 years. Both major parties are going to support Isreal in some way. Vote the gop out to the void and turn on the DNC next. This way at least maybe women in US won't risk dying or jail time.
Vote the gop out to the void and turn on the DNC next.
The question I keep asking and get no reply to is, how?
How do we "turn on the DNC next". In your scenario, we've just given them the unequivocal message that they can be assured of our votes no matter what their policies are, even supporting genocide doesn't loose them votes, so long as the Republicans are worse.
So, by what mechanism do we "turn on the DNC"?
Why would they listen to a single protest, campaign, or speech knowing that their votes are secure no matter what?
DNC already know people only vote for them no matter what because the GOP is the big baddy and not even hiding it. DNC behavior over the years taught me that. Literally nothing the public will do will change their minds. They'll pop champagne like those wall streeters.
Yeah that's the kicker. I know this is 100% hopful but in a ideal world GOP eats itself when Trump loses again and the DNC is now effectively replacing the GOP as the conservative party. I will 100% be telling people to vote third party to break the DNC. Of course I thought this would happen in 2020 but Trump rallied the GOP. DNC need to get what they deserve but I can't risk my sisters safety over my wants to punish them. It's like the anachrist communist meme. Truce until the revolution.
a ideal world GOP eats itself when Trump loses again and the DNC is now effectively replacing the GOP as the conservative party.
Best answer I've had yet. I'm not convinced, but at least it's a plan with an actual mechanism that isn't contrary to reality.
The reason I'm not convinced is that it would require politics to be far less Machiavellian than it is. All the while it's in their best interests to have Trump-the-devil as their opponent, they'll push that narrative, true or not. I think the Democrats will be too scared to push too far to the centre for the very reasons you've given, they might loose support to an actual left-wing and their donors simply won't risk that. The Democrat's job is to suck energy from actual left-wing campaigns. To do they they need to stay left, but not too left.
And, of course, they need to convince millions of people more progressive than they are, to vote for them regardless because "the other guy...".
But still, I respect your plan. Hope I'm wrong, and it works.
No-one will vote for Trump instead they will transfer their vote to third party because "accelerating war" and "being pro-genocide" is not what everyone wants from democratic party. Maybe Dems don't understand their voters.
they will transfer their vote to third party
Which is implicitly voting for Trump. Again, really fucking stupid.
Atleast you agree that these votes are important but you should also understand that republicans can get votes by committing "wars and genocides" but dems voters are not comfortable with these things. Dems should acknowledge the demands of their voters.
Harris is not in a position where she can do that until after the election. I'm not arguing that she will or won't... only that she can't right now regardless of her actual stance.
I'm not arguing that she will or won't... only that she can't right now regardless of her actual stance.
You're not 'arguing' anything at all. You're just declaring it to be the case with so much as a scrap of evidence offered.
All the evidence provided indicates a sizeable demographic of ex-Democrat voters who would readily vote Democrat again if they changed policy on arms sales.
No polling data from anywhere indicates that keeping arms sales is the key to the swing states.
All polling data that's been provided indicates that banning arms sales is the key to the swing states.
So what is tying Harris's hands exactly? Spell it out.
Just because you're not following the argument nor participating in the conversation doesn't mean I'm not making one.
- Trump will be far worse for Gaza than Harris by every possible measure
- For this reason, anyone who cares about Gaza must vote for Harris, no matter how repulsive they might find that choice to be
- Harris must beat Trump
- To do this Harris needs to take away voters from Trump
- Harris coming out against Israel will give voters to Trump, not take them away from Trump
- Harris must not come out against Israel before elected or she won't get elected
Anyone who cares about Gaza and doesn't vote for Harris doesn't actually care about Gaza and are just attention seeking, trolling, and/or fucking stupid.
To do this Harris needs to take away voters from Trump
You've provided no evidence at all for this, and all the available evidence demonstrates the contrary.
Just declaring things to be the case isn't an argument. You have to bring evidence to bear.
Harris coming out against Israel will give voters to Trump, not take them away from Trump
Again. No evidence, and all the available evidence is to the contrary.
Harris must not come out against Israel before elected or she won't get elected
Again, all the evidence given shows the opposite.
The vast majority of Democrat voters and a smaller group of Republican voters want to stop arms sale to Israel.
A huge proportion of key voters in swing states want to stop arms sales to Israel.
Voters angry at the Democrats for not stopping arms sales to Israel are actively saying they will abstain or vote Trump.
No group, poll, or campaign has come out to claim they'll vote Trump if the Democrats stop arms sales to Israel.
All this evidence supports the view that stopping arms sales to Israel will gain Democrats a massive number of additional votes, some of which will be from otherwise Trump voters.
You've provided no evidence to the contrary.
To do this Harris needs to take away voters from Trump You’ve provided no evidence at all for this, and all the available evidence demonstrates the contrary.
Perhaps you don't understand how elections work? In this case, either Harris or Trump is going to win. That will be based on which one gets the most votes. Every vote cast that is not for Harris automatically helps Trump. There is really nothing to debate here.
Voters angry at the Democrats for not stopping arms sales to Israel are actively saying they will abstain or vote Trump.
And that makes them fucking stupid because they'd rather put in someone who will definitely destroy Gaza than someone who might not help Gaza as much as they'd like.
No group, poll, or campaign has come out to claim they’ll vote Trump Because there doesn't need to be a poll to say this. It's blindingly obvious.
Trump's voters want Gaza gone. They would be perfectly fine with just dropping a nuke on them an calling it a day. For Harris to come out now to support Gaza over Israel would mean two things. Those who might have been leaning away from Trump for other reasons will have cause to go ahead and vote for him. Harris will lose votes from those who support Israel. Believe it or not, there are plenty of Democrats who also wouldn't mind if Gaza would just go ahead and die, already. You will have religious zealots who might have otherwise voted for Harris instead vote for Trump.
So just doubling down on blind assertions? The lack of intellectual integrity is astounding.
To win, Harris does not need to take votes from Trump. She can win by taking votes from Independents and currently non-voters.
The evidence is that this group would vote for her if she changed policy on arms sales to Israel.
There is no evidence of a similar sized group of currently committed Democrats who would not vote for her if she changed policy on arms sales to Israel.
As such, there is no evidence for your claim that she needs to keep this policy to win and what evidence there is suggests the opposite.
That's how evidence works, your theory is supposed to respond to it.
Trump's voters want Gaza gone
No they don't. The polls suggest they are about 50/50 on the matter. Again, evidence helps us here rather than just spewing whatever we reckon.
For Harris to come out now to support Gaza over Israel would mean two things. Those who might have been leaning away from Trump for other reasons will have cause to go ahead and vote for him.
No. Again, there's no evidence from polling of a significant group who would do this.
Harris will lose votes from those who support Israel. Believe it or not, there are plenty of Democrats who also wouldn't mind if Gaza would just go ahead and die, already
No. Again the actual evidence shows over 60% of Democrats want arms sales to Israel banned, and only a tiny percentage actually want them maintained (the rest undecided). The figures are even higher in Michigan, as an example of a key swing state.
The evidence is that this group would vote for her if she changed policy on arms sales to Israel.
The evidence is that if they don't vote for her then they're going to get Trump who will absolutely destroy Gaza (and the U.S.) If they don't vote for her or don't vote at all then they are fucking morons. They will take their moral convictions to their graves.
Well a vice president can't just change policy against the wishes of the president. Nor do they regularly deviate in public opinion. That's not something that needs to be looked up.
As to weather she would actually do that, well, only the future knows that.
a vice president can't just change policy against the wishes of the president. Nor do they regularly deviate in public opinion.
Apologies for my lack of clarity. I was using 'Harris' as shorthand for 'the Harris campaign'. I mean to ask why they wouldn't change policy... The campaign team.