Unless the judge has some knowledge that Baldwin either had intent, or was negligent in such a way as to contribute to the death, I'm not seeing what purpose it would serve to have him stand trial. He must feel absolutely terrible as it is, and my understanding is that it was not at all his fault.
this post was submitted on 25 May 2024
117 points (91.5% liked)
News
23014 readers
4 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Unless the judge has some knowledge that Baldwin either had intent, or was negligent in such a way as to contribute to the death,
Trials are the thing we do that allow juries/judges to come to those conclusions.
Typically, there needs to be enough evidence for an indictment to stand trial. So far, there hasn’t been publicly released enough evidence to show that he was in anyway at fault.
Well he already has been indicted by a grand jury. And the standard for them is probable cause, which is a very low bar. Just that he held a gun when it went off and struck someone should meet that for manslaughter.
load more comments
(3 replies)
He was the employer and he fostered the conditions that led to a death. Something we truly need to penalize.
Not whataboutism, but why they he'll don't we pursue corporations this vigorously when their bad conditions get people killed?
THOUGHT CRIME DETECTED STAY WHERE YOU ARE CITIZEN FOR MANDATORY CORPORATE THOUGHT RETRAINING
load more comments
(5 replies)
The purpose is to prosecute him for the crime he has been charged with. That charge is Involuntary manslaughter, which explicitly means he was negligent in a way that lead to the death of another person. The purpose of having him(or literally anyone) stand trial in the American justice system is (supposed) to examine the evidence and determine if it supports the charges against the (presumed innocent) defendant. You don’t get let off the hook for your mistakes just because you ‘feel absolutely terrible’ about it. Your understanding of fault in this situation is incorrect.
It won't be intent. The article says that it's involuntary manslaughter at issue. Probably negligence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter#Involuntary
Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being without intent of doing so, either expressed or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. It is normally divided into two categories, constructive manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter.
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, and gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts themselves in a position where they will be unaware of facts which would render them liable.
Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako and R v Perreau). Another example could be leaving a child locked in a car on a hot day.
true, most of the blame goes to dumbass negligent idiot who didnt care to do her armourer job and check for live ammo at any point (and probably brought that shit to the set)
and now its about if baldwins trigger pull and bad management is sentence worthy
He was negligent but not in his position as the actor holding the weapon. My understanding is he is partly responsible for deciding to choose a non-union safety team that lead to the death.
Actually... Both. In regular Firearm handoff protocols Actors have a responsibility to uphold on their end. If everything is done to spec it is impossible to fire a live round from a firearm. Some small obstruction in the barrel getting missed and propelled might be in the realm of reasonable but part of the process of handoff requires a mini briefing on handoff of the weapon where each round is checked over where the actor can see and only authorized people are allowed to handle weapons at all. Been standard since the Brandon Lee death on "The Crow".
Baldwin took the gun from a person on set whom everyone would have known wasn't supposed to be handling it and didn't insist on a check. In our industry actors are briefed every time they accept a role that it is their partial responsibility to make sure those checks are done because it is not just a safety thing, it's a liability issue if you harm someone. If a check is missed as an actor you are supposed to flag it and refuse the unsafe handoff to clear you of any potential liability or after the fact regrets...
Thing is this protocol has ever been throughly tested in a court setting. The last time anyone was killed by a bullet on a set was the cause of the massive change to the industry standard protocol in a mass concerted effort to do a "never again" style pledge which basically worked for 30 years straight. The other notable gun death was an actor who killed himself with a blank by pointing the gun at his own noggin and pulling the trigger which which was something he was expressly not supposed to do for a scene, he just did it on his own without anybody's sign off.
This industry sea change in part is designed to exonerate Productions from negligence charges like what happened on The Crow but it also made it one of the most well respected industry protocols as the Lee death basically became one of the industry's cautionary tale that lingers being retold to each new generation of crew. While non-union sets tend to be less regimented it is known fact that concerns of gun safety issues were already flagged and bought to production by the concerned Rust crew and no motion was made to change. Potentially Baldwin as part of a group may have directly ignored further appeals to firearm related safety prior to the shooting. This isn't the Brandon Lee situation over again - the industry now is a whole new ball game.
(Edit : Forgot to mention that the Rust crew had almost a full beat for beat dry run of the incident a few days before the incident where Baldwin's stunt double discharged two live rounds after being handed a gun that he was told was "cold"... How one ignores that kind of wake up call I'll never know.)
I read some more comments and I agree, I was too easy to convince that the actor doesn't bear responsibility.
I also liked another comment just discussing that it was a real gun, regardless of on set or off. Like anyone else handling a firearm in any other situation, the actor holding it is responsible for checking if it is loaded before pulling the trigger and for ensuring nobody is in the path of any bullet.
It be like that. As a person with my first decade of union/non union film now under my belt and trying for the shop steward program I find it really difficult to convey to people just how stunningly bad the praxis on the Rust set appears from an insider perspective. It's really difficult because people don't understand how regimented the safety protocols in film are and how ubiquitous certain ones really are. It's also hard for people to really grock power dynamics on a set. Like there have been people who have been banished instantly from set for being in an actor of Baldwin's power positions eyeline. Any regular crew would have risked their jobs to try and appeal directly to Baldwin to be safer and this was the year after film was halted for upwards of 8 months due to covid and was slow to come back. There were a lot of desperate people in film trying to make back the debts they incurred by the unexpected famine.
People have been sentanced to prison on manslaughter charges in film for a lot less than what happened on Rust.
Why do they even use real weapons for those kinds of shots? I fell like a high quality fake would be indistinguishable on screen but not even give the opportunity for something like this to happen except for the actor being given the absolute wrong prop.
More or less because the blanks give a more realistic recoil and the smoke whisps which saves on time and processing in post and you can see if the action works in real time on review.. and there are arguements that handling the real deal does actually add to the performance...
But like the standard done properly makes it incredibly difficult for injuries from weapons to occur. Consider that in 30 years the gun deaths in film plunged to almost zero *. There is way more production out there then there used to be and every scene where you see a gun being fired that is usually not one take and those takes were repeated over and over again. That's tens of thousands of safe handles over the years.
I don't have any issues with sets having or deciding to not have real guns but the real thing is that on a set that is doing the standard every weapon from barely looking like a gun at all rubber replica to projectiless gas powered airsoft gun are all treated as though they were real. When they are handed over you have to be shown exactly what they are and replica or not they can never be left unsupervised. They are always in authorized hands or locked up.
It's part of why this case is so important. Anyone with money can make a non-union film. The best practices transcend union borders because accidents made from cupidity and negligence should have consequences. You ignore the warnings then the consequences are yours. The discourse often frames this as a personal issue but it's a systemic one. Showing producers that being safe is a sometimes food is a dangerous precedent because the power they have over people is no joke.
- (if you exempt the guy who ended up blowing his brains out with a company weapon because he was playing around. These days the spiel actors get include the phrase "the force of blanks can still be deadly, keep clear of the muzzle and don't ever directly point them at another person at short range. )
It was ultimately his responsibility because it was his production. It was not his fault for pulling the trigger, it was the unsafe working conditions on set.
If any of us died at work due to unsafe working conditions then our families would definitely want the employer held responsible to the full extent of the law. Baldwin may be a famous actor but in this situation he was an employer too, not just an actor.
That seems to contradict the article:
Special prosecutor Kari T. Morissey argued that “the actor has responsibility for the firearms once it is in their hands.”
The prosecutor is explicitly arguing that he has responsibility because he was holding the gun.
I will be interested to see the angle the prosecution takes. I think there's a real sense of embarrassment from the authorities on this one, and they're trying to make sure they don't look like they're sweeping it under the rug to mollify the Hollywood people, but it's a case with pretty big holes. Since it's "only" involuntary manslaughter, I wonder if the angle they'll take is that there's a legitimate question of fact that even an actor could see that the armorer was a disaffected nepobaby who was bad at her job, and the production wasa chaotic mess, and that all this raised the bar for how Baldwin should have proceeded.
load more comments
(10 replies)
Fault is percentage based on the US. The employer and employer can be civilly liable for damages. But this is a criminal trial.
If this was a trucker who refused to check his blind spot routineoy before merging and killed someone the trucker would be held to account.
load more comments
(1 replies)
load more comments
(10 replies)
Different article on the same subject on a less garbage website
Good Lord this story won't end.
I mean, it will end eventually. The first trial is over and I think this is the only other person being tried
view more: next ›