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NYC Man Convicted Over Gunsmithing Hobby After Judge Says 2nd Amendment 'Doesn't Exist in This Courtroom' (redstate.com)

submitted 6 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

She’s right that states and municipalities have the right to impose their own gun laws, since 2a is federal in scope, though it would have been more accurate to say “doesn’t apply” rather than “doesn’t exist,” obviously.

Honestly my heart goes out to the defendant. He could easily have been a coworker of mine, and if my coworker told me about his fun hobby making guns without any FFL, smith license, registration or permitting, in this city of all places, I would have dropped everything to talk sense into him.

He sounds like any other gun nerd, but he straight up ignored gun law in a place with famously strict and well-enforced gun laws, and with serious gusto.

defendant’s 36 ghost gun arsenal

I’m kind of surprised he was able to make as many guns as he did before metro police came knocking. This is Brooklyn. You will almost never see plainclothes open carry in NYC, but manufacturing pushes the case into another bracket entirely.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

She’s right that states and municipalities have the right to impose their own gun laws, since 2a is federal in scope, though it would have been more accurate to say “doesn’t apply” rather than “doesn’t exist,” obviously.

It does apply. A state can create gun laws but they can't violate the 2nd amendment.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I’m no ConLaw expert, but AFAIK the doctrine remains that the Bill of Rights restricts primarily the federal government, save for 5A and 7A and using either clause to use 2A to override state gun control by all accounts remains a jurisprudential Faustian bargain no justices have yet been willing to make.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

No, that isn't how it works at all. That is a view before the Civil War and partially up till the 1960, but SCOTUS has made it clear. The rights are for everyone, state/federal. The states cannot violate your rights in the constitution.

One of the arguments in Miranda is that the state did not have to follow the 5th Amendment. As you can tell, that did not work as the state thought.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Hmm maybe my information is out of date or I just need to review. Which case incorporated 2A? Was it more recent than DC-Heller?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Miranda is from the 1960’s.

Heller is fairly recent but the only reason scotus took the case is states can’t violate the amendments.

Unless you were born in the 1860’s, it’s been fairly well known that the constitution cannot be violated by states on their citizens.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Just so I’m on the same page, we’re still talking about the first 10 (not 13-15, 19, etc.) and the question is whether 2A renders state gun control unconstitutional?

~~Edit: Also assuming the latter is true, are we then to read 2a as a guarantee to possession of these weapons to citizens carte blanche?~~

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The whole Constitution is applied to the states.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Then we need to overhaul the court systems and multiply their bureaucratic size and process to satisfy the grand jury requirement of 5A and the civil jury trial right of 7A.

And assuming 2a renders state gun control unconstitutional, I presume then we read 2A as a carte blanche guarantee to possession of these weapons to citizens.

This is what we propose, yes?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

By default, it doesn't render it unconsotitional. It means you can't violate it by restricting rights.

We already meet the requirements for 5th and 7th. WHy do you think plea bargains are so popular?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

We already meet the requirements for 5th and 7th.

States do not because as of yet, 5’s grand jury requirement, 6’s criminal jury trial right, and 7’s civil jury trial right have not been interpreted as binding upon the states.

By default, it doesn’t render it unconstitutional. It means you can’t violate it by restricting rights.

I agree that’s the precedent, but I’m unclear where we should place that threshold of violation. Presumably somewhere on the scale of TX to NY? Perhaps… IL?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Well I learned something new today. I always thought we could ask for a jury in a civil state case. I’ve done federal and you can do bench or jury.

I agree that’s the precedent, but I’m unclear where we should place that threshold of violation

The courts determine and then it rolls up. Also in district appears to radically differ on what is allows or not. To be clear I’m pro-second amendment but I do believe in reasonable restrictions. No felons. Background checks. Etc.

Other people feel any restriction is wrong and I disagree with that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

(Apologies, got busy at work.) Yes I’d have thought so too. There might be a list which jurisdictions where it’s available.

I suspect the lack of precedent for their incorporation among the amendments binding the states comes down to just the budgetary requirements for expansion. As long as it remains unreasonable or impossible to enforce without effectively being taken over by federal, these exceptions remain.

2A might be similar in principle, since there’s no one-size-fits-all doctrine that can be realistically applied besides either zero regulation or a complete ban, both of which would risk a great deal of legitimacy.

I’m with you re: gun control. Tools not toys. Many tools are dangerous enough to require proof of competency or purpose, and some can only be used in certain situations. Surely a tool whose purpose is danger shouldn’t be the exception.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I’m with you re: gun control. Tools not toys. Many tools are dangerous enough to require proof of competency and/or purpose. Guns specifically designed to be dangerous, so it’s not unreasonable to expect those tools have greater oversight

A gun should be dangerous. That’s its job.

I’m for reasonable restrictions and I’ll admit that’s a hard term to define without seeing the law proposed. I have no issue with a background check being required for all purchases. With the internet. It’s not that hard now.

I am not against permits for CCW. As long as it’s an easy process that doesn’t make overly difficult. In Nevada I had to take a class , shoot a couple of times and apply for the permit.

I don’t mind bump stocks being banned.

Things like that I find reasonable. Banning assault rifles I do not think is reasonable.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Banning assault rifles I do not think is reasonable.

Yeah I avoid debating weapon class bans because it always amounts to an arbitrary threshold on the scale of potential kill rate, and people sporting desert storm kits at the grocery store do all the talking anyway.

In Nevada I had to take a class, shoot a couple times and apply for a permit.

Training is the regulation I think my fellow progressives should back. Do that correctly and the rest takes care of itself. Anti-gun messaging clearly isn’t working. Instead, embrace gun ownership as a public service wed to demonstrated responsibility and discipline, since safety is the actual goal.

By discipline I mean require training, make it rigorous and cheap, and make regular shooting mandatory for permit renewal. Require inspections for proper maintenance and adherence to storage safety protocols. Offer specialist certifications for more exotic equipment. Basically, make sure would-be gun owners respect the weapon, understand the responsibility they’re taking on, and are equipped to use them safely and proficiently. Done right, civilians seeking military outfitting would face the same requirements as equivalent military personnel, so that they might as well just become a reservist.

Every hooah 2a person I’ve known would be all for this. But they take guns seriously and aren’t contributing to the statistics. The actual unsafe assholes, who make guns a national problem, wouldn’t bother owning guns if there was work involved. It may not be popular (yet) among “liberals” but lots of countries with high rates of gun ownership and low gun violence handle regulation this way.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

"Ghost guns" are protected, theyre just home made guns. Even the atf says so.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Allowed at the federal level yes, but state regs differ, and NYS gun law covers the 80% kits (S.14, S.13A).

I certainly wouldn’t pedal New York gun law as the ideal but AFAIK it’s not inconsistent re: unfinished receivers vs traditional firearms.

Edit: I forgot to summarize the local code. In short, dude needed a license, similar to the one needed to handle refrigerants or work on electrical systems. A few months turnaround but isn’t cost-prohibitive: https://thegunzone.com/how-to-become-a-gunsmith-in-ny/

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Federal law overrides state law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/supremacy_clause

The 2nd still applies in NYC

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

I don’t remember much con law, but I seem to recall using 7a to incorporate 2a is very much a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t prospect, and justices have historically leaned on stare decisis to avoid cutting the knot.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

An American judge in an American coutroom says the American Constitution does not exist.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I'm honestly wondering how she got where she is, who failed?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago

Maybe to her it's a matter of "We live in the free country of New York and do not live in the United States of America.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Wasn't it a woman? (or did I misread)

Either way, this person should be removed and permanently disbarred.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 months ago

Yup, you're right. I've corrected it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

She told us, ‘Do not bring the Second Amendment into this courtroom. It doesn’t exist here. So you can’t argue Second Amendment. This is New York.'

Any judge who says this should be removed immediately. The second amendment is valid in all states.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It'll be an easy one to call for mistrial.

This is how ideological progressives are. They truly don't believe in the rule of law.