this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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Just putting this here cause I found it a good overview of a pretty confusing situation I had no prior knowledge about

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[–] [email protected] 91 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Why does everything have to be a video these days ffs. What’s the tl;dr?

[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

Trying to remain unbias, the super TLDR;

  • FDO decided that they didn't like vaxry's community and told him to fix or action will be taken against him (Banning from FDO) for violating their (FDO's)
  • Vaxry said, This is my community, It's not an FDO project, and is not under control of FDO, Doesn't fall under purview of FDO's COC, I will not be bullied. And posted the interaction.
  • FDO's COC committy didn't like that and banned vaxry from FDO.

Time for my personal bias Im not sure how I can hide this other then spoiler, but ignore it if you don't want my very bias opinion;

spoilerFDO for sure over stepped their bounds. FDO did wrongfully invoke their COC against hyprland's community, Their COC is extremely clear on it's "scope" https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/CodeOfConduct/ under which hyprland absolutely doesn't fall under. That being said, OFC FDO retains the right to ban anyone from their services as they please (I'll explain why this is extremely bad below). But they invoked the COC which is extremely important here.

Vaxry absolutely acted unprofessionally in publicizing this, on the other hand, I'm really glad he did because it's insane that FDO is attacking the hyprland community in the first place, which is an extremely self isolating community. It's very much "what happens in the discord is a discord thing". Outside of the discord, hyprland community is perfectly fine. I've not seen a single "Hyprland fan" go around shitting on anything else (granted this is hard to judge since you need to be given context of someone shitting on something, to be a hyprland fan), on the contary, I have seen many people publically shittying on vaxry on multiple forums.

FDO was in their right to ban Vaxry for publicizing the emails, but I don't think it was a good idea at all. They essentially punished Vaxry for airing their dirty laundry. Proving him right in the end. It's important to note, that given context, Drew's articles on Vaxry are insanely biased against him, with the intent to drum up hate towards vaxry (going so far as to imply Vaxry would call people the N-Word when giving support to people by using extremely misleading and cherry picked context)

The original emails are best explained by vaxry himself so check out his blog.

In the end, Vaxry acted unprofessionally and got banned for it, but FDO acted equally unprofessionally, and their actions greatly overstepped the rights they had (as far as enforcing COC goes, their original email)

Now WHY is FDO banning vaxry so important? Pretty much everything that matters in terms of linux gui development is on FDO's services. Wayland protocol discussion, Mesa, Wlroots etc. by banning vaxry from these services, he is pretty much no longer able to directly interact with the wayland community. (At least not without ban evasion or someone else acting as a proxy)

EDIT: I forgot my conclusions.

I strongly feel like FDO is using their position as the people who control linux to push their politics unto others. Hence Vaxry's original blog post How Freedesktop/RedHat harass other projects into submission

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago

From Vaxry's second blogpost:

However, it was brought to our attention apparently you have decided to take to posting about this to your blog.

I have full rights to do so, just like you apparently had the right to post it to your mailing list.

I didn't dug any deeper, but it seems like Lyude also published the communication between her an Vaxry, if I understand it correctly.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (6 children)

What is Vaxry and FDO? Not like you can google FDO...

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Thanks. A lot of drama then. I’ve been in the discord and on github for a while and from that I can tell vaxry has a bit of a “personality”, as many good developers have. Nothing wrong with that. I like Hyprland a lot, I have been using it daily for 2 years or so and any bugs I reported got fixed really fast. In the end it is a solid project and that’s what really matters.

Let’s hope this thing blows over quickly.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Well, having read his blog for a while Drew DeVault could certainly also be described as "having a bit of a 'personality'". Seems communities tend to form around people who have strong opinions on many things and sometimes those opinions clash. That in itself isn't really an issue though, mostly it becomes more of a problem the larger the scope of opinions discussed becomes as there is more potential for conflict that can not be resolved because it touches on core world view aspects of one or both people involved.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 7 months ago (1 children)

TLDW: read all the blog posts, all the discussions and make your own opinion. I lost 15 minutes of my life and didn't become any more informed or smarter.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Damn, I had no idea what a shithole the hyprland community was :c

I quite like the feel of the WM, but it seems like I'll be moving on

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It's sad cuz the soft is good tho But I'll be moving from it as well

[–] [email protected] 27 points 7 months ago (2 children)

and it's too niche to have a reasonable chance of creating an active fork. but the stuff happening in their community is simply vile, and as a queer person I won't feel comfortable to use software developed by open bigots

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago
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[–] [email protected] 23 points 7 months ago

Wow is it this hard to not be an asshole

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I absolutely love Hyprland but have no respect for Vaxry beyond his coding ability.

I really hope someone starts a good fork of it, I haven't found another wm I like as much but I hate to be seen as supporting that awful person.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's FOSS, just don't donate to the project or promote it and keep using it anyway. That's the beauty of FOSS, the devs dumb opinions shouldn't effect your personal use of quality tools. Imagine if you stopped using hammers just because "communism", it'd be a pretty stupid self inflicted inconvenience.
If the project itself goes to shit and he starts using it to push his stupid agenda, then abandon it. But until then it's completely understandable to keep using it for your personal workflow. Everyone uses GNU utilits, that doesn't mean we agree with everything Richard Stallmen has ever said.
Hopefully Vaxry will learn and clean up his act.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 7 months ago

nicco loves linux also apparently made a good video, I just saw this one first

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Does this have any impact on the future viability of Hyprland as a project? Should it affect (on a technical level) whether users should start using Hyprland if they don't already?

I literally installed it for the first time yesterday to take a look, but don't want to get invested in something that may fizzle out...

[–] [email protected] 28 points 7 months ago

Hyprland itself will still continue to work just fine. What it does affect is Hyprland's ability to propose changes to FreeDesktop specifications like Wayland. Although I think only the lead dev Vaxry has been banned so potentially they could just get some other dev to do that instead.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I have seen people describing the code base to be ugly. However, the project itself looks like it will sustain. But don't go to their discord server for support if you belong to any sort of minority group.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago (4 children)

It is so stupid... Why make drama instead of making linux better as a whole. A sad thing to see in general.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago

It always baffles me why some people can't just fucking live and let live. If someone doesn't appreciate your "joke", then it should be a very clear indicator that you need to STFU, otherwise, it's obvious you're a dickhead.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Alright who is in the Discord and can tell us if it's actually 4chan or not

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago

4Chan is obv worse, as was said in the video, but the discord can be pretty obnoxious. Just a lot of humor you'd expect from the average middle-schooler.

[–] starman 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I've been there for like 2 weeks in 2023 and I'd say that 4chan is way worse

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Great video from brodie, Regardless of where you stand on the issue, This video is an unbiased and decent take.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I honestly, but respectfully, disagree.

Brodie has been playing the apologist lately, and finding himself on the defensive when Nicco criticized Brodie for giving a floor to Lunduk, who is another example of a toxic individual within the Linux community. Brodie basically has played the card , "I'll hear out anybody because it's important to get both sides of the story."

But imho it shows he lacks spine to take a real stand. I get why, he needs to retain his audience which is a mix of people from different political and social backgrounds. I just don't respect it.

This latest video of his shows exactly his own reasoning. He says something along the lines of, if you take a position, you're going to lose a lot of your audience. He was talking specifically about the FDO iirc, but he might as well have been talking about himself.

I do have some sympathy for Brodie, I've been following him from almost his first video when he was still in Uni showing off his BSPWM configs, etc. And I don't think he ever thought his channel would become politicized nor do I think he ever wanted to address his own political leanings on his channel. But in my own life I've just noticed you can't avoid that, even in a public platform. Everything is political, and if you don't show people who you stand with, (like solidly, on one side or the other, you CANNOT have it both ways) then you just are saying you'll sit on the sidelines while the people you're supposedly advocating for (the Linux community) burn from within.

Until he's willing to have Danielle Fore (Trans Developer on the Elementary OS Distro) on his Tech Over Tea Podcast, I'm going to say he's giving a lot more attention and positive exposure to toxic people than not. And he's not exactly actually on Both Sides, like he wants us all to believe.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

But imho it shows he lacks spine to take a real stand. I get why, he needs to retain his audience which is a mix of people from different political and social backgrounds. I just don’t respect it.

I really don't think he should take a stand, This is why I actually like him a lot more then pretty much any other linux youtuber. With him I don't need to worry about retarded distro takes, stupid drama takes. Just information.

Until he’s willing to have Danielle Fore (Trans Developer on the Elementary OS Distro) on his Tech Over Tea Podcast, I’m going to say he’s giving a lot more attention and positive exposure to toxic people than not. And he’s not exactly actually on Both Sides, like he wants us all to believe.

Im not sure who that is, Was there some kind of drama involved here? It never made it across my feed personally and being honest, due to my recent findings of new time, I'm partially suffering terminally online syndrome. Not to sound demeaning, but I genuinely have no idea who Danielle Fore is outside of the small tidbit you just brought up. Can you tell me more about them?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I really don't think he should take a stand, This is why I actually like him a lot more then pretty much any other linux youtuber. With him I don't need to worry about removed distro takes, stupid drama takes. Just information.

That's fair. I just don't see this as stupid drama. If someone is being a hateful bigot, and that is not an opinion it is simply a fact here, then that is the information Brodie should report, using rhetoric that reflects that. From my point of view, Brodie is either avoiding the certain left leaning politics because he's actually right wing, or he's too afraid to admit he's left wing because he'll lose a good chunk of his audience. Either way he's lost my respect.

Im not sure who that is, Was there some kind of drama involved here? It never made it across my feed personally and being honest, due to my recent findings of new time, I'm partially suffering terminally online syndrome. Not to sound demeaning, but I genuinely have no idea who Danielle Fore is outside of the small tidbit you just brought up. Can you tell me more about them?

Danielle Fore is a lead UX/UI developer on the Elementary OS Distro who has documented her transition on Mastodon. She fields both technical and sociopolitical questions on her Mastodon account. She recently received some attention due to SwitchedToLinux spouting anti Trans rhetoric on his channel specifically referencing her, with both Trafotin and Nicco responding very negatively against SwitchedToLinux for that.

Her technical chops are up there with the best of them, especially when you consider ElementaryOS being known for their clean UX/UI design. If Brodie wants to truly take the mantle of an unbiased information only Linux influencer, then he should be covering the facts across the board, including her or at least someone who can speak from experience on the more than occasional occurrences of misogyny and transphobia that crops up in the Linux community.

Unlike Trafotin and Nicco, Brodie has chosen to handwave away this serious problem as drama while continuing to give a platform to those that are the toxic perpetrators of said rhetoric. All I ask is where is he platforming those who offer up counterarguments? People who are going to call it out for the toxicity it is? No? Nobody.... Guess that speaks to the company he's willing to keep and the company he's not willing to. And honestly that doesn't appear to be unbiased and willing to hear both sides. And it's not even just presenting the facts. It's hand picking them.

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