this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2024
531 points (87.2% liked)

Memes

45731 readers
984 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Reading about the current events got me looking into the history of Palestine and Israel, and I noticed a lot of Israel's politicians (like Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon to name a few) were Zionist terrorists (using the word literally, not subjectively) since before the establishment of Israel. The groups they belonged to, like Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi have been designated terrorist organizations by the United Nations, British, and United States governments, and

Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization".

The Zionists have explained their view as follows:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man."

and

Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany.[22] The organization offered cooperation in the following terms: Lehi would rebel against the British, while Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers.[32] Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig. The Lehi documents outlined that its rule would be authoritarian and indicated similarities between the organization and Nazis.

It just gets worse the more you look into it, but it does give important context to the current genocide in Gaza, and to the decades old conflict in general.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 95 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

Agreed. I find the people in my life who blindly support Israel know nothing of the history of Zionism prior to 1948 and think Palestine was given to Israel just because of the holocaust, almost universally omitting that there were already people there and the responsibility of all western governments (I’m considering Russia “west” here) in the oppression of Jews in the years leading up to, and after, the holocaust.

The Behind the Bastards episode on Bibi Netanyahu talked about how he really got his start in the US as a lobbyist for the state of Israel and the media blitz Israel utilized to get both American parties to unconditionally support Israel. Most Americans are just propagandized af.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago

oh no are you criticizing something a Jewish person did?! You are a anti-Semitic Nazi!! of course S/

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago

Philly isn’t sending their best.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago (3 children)

You should have continued citing your sources to have complete picture and correct historical context, not picking and choosing since it creates distorted picture:

Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis, proposing a Jewish state based on "nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance".[22][23] After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move towards support for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union[17] and the ideology of National Bolshevism, which was considered an amalgam of both right and left.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I guess, yea.

Lehi supported both Hitler and Stalin.

You're right, that does make the picture more complete!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

To add even more context, Lehi was an offshoot of Irgun which was an extremist offshoot of Haganah. They had less than 300 members compared to Haganah's 20,000.

Their ideology probably isn't an accurate representation of all the politicians you mentioned except Yitzhak Shamir who was a leader of Lehi and became a prime minister of Israel 40 years later which is a bit weird.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Thanks for the additional context.

Well, about Ariel Sharon (from Wikipedia)

An official enquiry found that he bore "personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatila massacre of Palestinian refugees, for which he became known as the "Butcher of Beirut" among Arabs. He was subsequently removed as defense minister.

And Begin

was described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation".

And there was a famous open letter published (the one signed by Einstein, among others) that

described Begin's Herut party as "terrorist, right-wing chauvinist organization in Palestine,"[34] "closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties" and accused his group (along with the smaller, militant, Stern Gang) of preaching "racial superiority" and having "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community".

And those guys held the highest government office of Israel! It might be weird but it's not uncommon, especially if you look into other government posts too. Like I said, the more you look into it the worse it gets.

Edit: another example

In 1915, Pinhas Felix Rosenblüth, who rose to be Israel's first Justice Minister, wrote in a field report on Ostjuden published in Der Jüdische Student that the great lesson for young Jewish Zionists fighting on the eastern front, on experiencing delusions at what they observe of Jewish life there, was that Palestine was one large "institute for the fumigation of (all) Jewish vermin" (Große Entlausungsanstalt für alles jüdische Ungeziefer).

[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

ideology of National Bolshevism

That's just nazis calling themselves "socialists", the same way nazis call themselves "national socialists" while actively killing socialists.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂

Unlike in the UK where Jews were considered second-class citizens, or in Nazi Germany where they were being ethnically cleaned & genocided, the Soviet Union had Jews among the Communist party ranks, including the politburo. There were Jewish Bolsheviks in the Communist revolution, so they’d been there from the start.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂

Maybe because Ultranationalism is very much a far right aspect of fascism?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Sure, but I don’t see the relevance.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

National Bolshevism,whose supporters are known as National Bolsheviks and colloquially as Nazbols, is a syncretic political movement committed to combining ultranationalism and communism.

Source

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Nazbols are cryptofascists; they’re anticommunist LARPing as communists. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

They’re playing the same word salad game that the National Socialists did before them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

First time I've seen the word 'cryptofascist' outside of Red Dwarf.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

It's pretty common in certain circles. Less common in the past few years.

They stopped hiding.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago

Apologies, I meant smegging cryptofascists.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Think you didn't read it thoroughly enough. That text is talking about national "bolsheviks", so just nazis.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

Yeah it was about the USSR and about Nazbols, but I only noticed the USSR part on first reading.

Anyway Nazbol shitstains always seem to pop up at the fringes to prey on baby leftists. Caleb Maupin’s little cryptofash cult infested BreadTube for a while, seemingly collapsed in a sex scandal, but still somehow seems to skulk about: https://cpiusa.org/

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Isn't zionism the result of some dumb dudes imagination

[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago

arguably, that's every country, philosophy, nationality, religion, paradigm, law and ethnicity.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

Fucking hell I didn't know it was that bad!

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (9 children)

Would OP please consider posting this to politics?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (3 children)

You could do so yourself but I understand not wanting to as this would quickly turn your inbox into a trash fire for a long time depending of which politics community you post it to and who is federated with who.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Some things are very wrong with lemmy when good content like this needs to get posted in memes ..

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago

I’m 54. When people ask my opinion of this war, I change the subject. I’m not proud of that, but I’ve seen this war more than once.

I have strong opinions about many things, but I’ve seen what this particular war does and I’ve learnt there’s no winning it. I donate to Gaza, but nothing I can say will change the horror the latest flare up of this war will bring. Im sorry.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Haganah actually fought against Irgun and Lehi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saison

"The Haganah, the largest Yishuv paramilitary, was a Labor Zionist organization; on occasion, it partook in military action (such as during The Saison) against certain radical right-wing Jewish political opponents and militant groups, sometimes in cooperation with the British Mandate administration."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism#History

And the Irgun split from Haganah, because they were presumably too defensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah#1931_Irgun_split

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

i thought the palestinian troubles started around 1920?

which sources did you use for your research?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Why 1920?

Everything stated is linked in the description.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›