this post was submitted on 09 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 68 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (57 children)

OK but there are actually great uses for blockchain that are completely disconnected from anything you typically see

For example, banks may begin using blockchain for maintaining their internal ledgers. It will help solve a ton of issues around reconciling the transactions from all over the globe

Blockchain has reasonable uses. Really good ones. Crypto and nft bros just completely ruined the image of it

EDIT: I love all the comments demonstrating how little people understand about blockchain. Bitcoin was not the first blockchain, nor is its design the only type of blockchain. Assuming that all blockchain looks like the crypto/nft paradigm is just showing your ignorance.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/j5nzx4/what-was-the-first-blockchain

[–] [email protected] 117 points 8 months ago (14 children)

Blockchain is only potentially useful if there’s no single entity that can be trusted. If banks can’t even trust themselves to manage their own internal ledgers, they have much bigger problems to deal with.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago (5 children)

Trustless systems aren’t a bad thing that has to step in when the good thing fails. Trustless systems are inherently better because you don’t have to trust a bank (or anyone for that matter).

Additionally, ledgers can be gamed/corrupted/falsified. This is significantly more complex (bordering on impossible) on the blockchain.

https://youtu.be/bBC-nXj3Ng4

[–] [email protected] 39 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There are often easier, more reliable, and far cheaper ways to achieve the same things without using a blockchain. Some of the principles are even used in normal web browsing to ensure secure untampered connections.

Blockchain just solves a subproblem that only arises when there’s no appointed central entity.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 8 months ago (6 children)

Blockchain has been around as a technology for nearly two decades. If financial institutions thought it could help them you can bet they would be all-in on it by now. As it is, blockchain has no significant advantages over traditional financial ledger systems, so what incentive is there for them to use it.

It's not something new or cutting edge any more, just waiting for a bright spark to discover the technology and put it to use.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (28 children)

How is the blockchain different from a read only ( write only once to be specific) DB that follows ACID?

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (15 children)

Why would you want the computational power of a bank system have anything to do with whether it's ledger is correct?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Yeah let’s use the computing power of an entire country to pay for a small coffee.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

While that is an inherent component of how proof-of-work cryptos work, and utterly stupid, it's not an inherent part of how to do blockchains.

You can have a blockchain without consuming stupid amounts of energy.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago (5 children)

Yeah it's called a database....

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (22 children)

as hostile as people are to block chain due to NFT's and bad implementations, the technology itself has its use cases. It's a great solution for information exchange that requires verification and Immutation. This makes them perfect for ledgers or transaction networks.

It's just there is so much bad PR regarding it everyone just discredits it. Not all of the block chain technologies are massively energy intensive per transaction, it's just many of the cryptocurrencies use the most intensive one because it's also arguably the most secure

[–] [email protected] 35 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Absolute immutability is kind of a terrible property for a financial system though, cos it completely ignores the fact that mistakes and fraud happen and you need a way to forcefully recover funds other than "lol sucks to be you I guess".

The one actually genuinely useful application for this kind of technology that anyone has come up with is Certificate Transparency, but crypto people don't get excited about it cos it's not possible to make money from it.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You can implement clawback while still having an immutable blockchain. The transaction will always stay on the blockchain, but the funds can be recovered

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago

this is how it should be anyway, you do not want any ledger or database to be mutable because it allows for integrity violations and will cause you to lose the ability to trust it. Even non-blockchain styles follow that principle.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (5 children)

You can revert transactions with immutable storage. For example git can do revert-commits.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago

Reverts work because users have equal write access to all the data. You can mess things up in the codebase, and even if you die of a heart attack 10m later, my revert is just as valid as your commit.

It's not really the same when every user has "sovereignty" over their address in the ledger. A bad actor has to consent to pushing a revert transaction onto the chain, or they have to consent to using a blockchain system where 3rd-party reversion is possible (which exists on some systems, but also defeats the concept of true sovereignty over your address).

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (15 children)

the technology itself has its use cases.

Cool.

Name one successful example.

I mean, it's been, what, 15 years of hype? Surely there must be a successful deployment of a commercially viable and useful blockchain that isn't just a speculative cryptocurrency or derivative thereof, right?

Right?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago (6 children)

There is nothing Crypto can do better than regular database. Immutability is not a desirable property.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 8 months ago
[–] [email protected] 30 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (15 children)

Blockchain is a nebulous buzzword with a vague meaning. But I have yet to see a sensible definition of a blockchain that doesn't include git. At the end of the day they are both just Merkle trees.

Git is pretty useful imo.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Well yes but can you pump and dump git commits ?

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (17 children)

Blockchain is pretty well defined.

Git doesn't have update rules that are only valid if signed by a particular private key.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Man, I remember how back in 2009 we were hyped about this possible chance for a fairer world that a independent currency might bring. Guess we were quite wrong. :)

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The independent currency was still worth standard currency... So the ones already hoarding all of that existing make-believe-number money just bought up and schemed us out of new make-believe-number money.

How did we not see this coming? :(

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago (5 children)

I think the only project I've seen so far where I've felt that a blockchain has actually been the correct choice is Alfis, which is a decentralized DNS that uses the blockchain as the public append-only ledger that it is, and it uses proof-of-work to add arbitrary costs to updates - to make spamming or namesquatting expensive.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago

Amazon has a database project called QLDB that uses blockchain for its audit log.

What do you call an audit log that's cryptographically verifiable? A blockchain.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Even if a particular coin has a finite number of possible coins, it exists in an unbounded universe of other coins.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago (7 children)

I've read through this whole thread, and I still haven't really come to any solid conclusions on it. I'm skeptical of crypto as a kind of idiotic speculative market, but that's also every market ever. But then, the blockchain is apparently different from crypto, even though they're both hype-laden marketing terms that have been completely fucked up. I think doing [redacted] with crypto is still potentially cool, though I think it still has limited anonymity, from what I've heard, and the speculative market also fucks it up.

Is "the blockchain" just like some nerd shit that's for internal hospital ledgers, and beyond that it's all kind of moot garbage, or what? Someone spoonfeed me.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 months ago (28 children)

One is the tech, the other is an example of a type of the tech. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

For most applications, this isn't necessary:

There are some examples like in biotech/finance that I personally believe will require a blockchain to be truly "fair" at the end

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago

Blockchain is often described as a solution in search for a problem. It’s a clever technology, but people don’t really know what it can be used for besides storing cryptocurrency transactions.

People have thought about storing other kinds of data in the blockchain, like health records, but no one can really point out to why this would be better than other solutions.

To achieve something similar with health records without blockchain, all that is needed is just a cryptographic signature. The hospital cryptographically signs a digital health document and email it to you. The hospital in turn stores it in some shared database accessible by other hospitals. Done.

If the health record is somehow lost from the shared database, then you got your own copy of it as backup. They can’t modify the health record either, because then it would diverge from your own copy.

The worst thing they can do is to add falsified health records without your approval, but that’s a problem with blockchain as well. Blockchain cannot verify that the input data is truthful (garbage in, garbage out).

The cryptographic signature step is a part of blockchain either way, so there’s no extra technical overhead in the non-blockchain way.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

The cryptography has much simpler algebraic analogues - what we are looking for is a "one-way function". This means a mathematical symbol that only works on the left side of the equals. The simplest one is the remainder of a division. For example if I told you that I had a remainder of 5 after dividing by 20, you wouldn't know if the original numerator was 25, 45, 65, 85, and so on. This operator is called mod (modulus). Even if you don't know what value I started with, It's not hard to guess what possible numerators could be with modulus. That's where the cryptography comes into play: a cryptographic hash is designed so that it's practically impossible to guess the original numerator. We'll stick with the modulus for explanatory purposes, but imagine that you can't list off possible numerators like I did.

Now we can invent a puzzle for a computer to solve. We'll start off with the same values as before, but - again - we are disallowing easy guesses. This forces us to check 1 mod 20, 2 mod 20, 3 mod 20, 4 mod 20, 5 mod 20 and so on. Eventually we'll hit 25 mod 20 giving us the solution to X mod 20 = 25. Now you can go back to the person that gave you the puzzle and prove that you've done 25 steps of work to arrive at a solution (or have made a lucky 1/25 guess). This is called "proof of work". A cryptographic has consists of a certain number of bits, such as 256 bits - this means a series of 1' s and 0's 256 long. The puzzle presented to the computer is "find the numerator that results in the first 50 bits being zero" (the more bits are required to be zero, the longer it will take to find the answer). Because of the incredibly slim chance of guessing the correct numerator, it doesn't really matter if the computer counts up (like we did with modulus) or guesses. So, in practice, everybody trying to find the solution starts at a random number and starts counting, or trying other random numbers, until someone wins the jackpot. It's basically a lottery, but the correct numbers have to be discovered instead of being dropped out of a glass ball at the end of the week. Once a computer finds a solution, everybody else playing the game can check their numerator as [probabilistic] proof that they have done work.

Now we can use this lottery to create a blockchain. We start with 5 things: a globally agreed on solution we are looking for (789), an initial block (which is just a number - lets say 12345), Bob's account #5 of $100, and Sally's account #6 of $200, and a huge amount of players of the above game. Sally wants to transfer $20 to Bob, so she says to all the players: "I'm #6 and want to give #5 $20. There's a $1 prize for finding a new block for me." All the players make a new denominator, by placing the numbers next to eachother - so 12345 6 200 5 100 20 1 - or just 1234562005100201. All the players start trying to find the number that will result in 789. Eventually someone finds 1234562005100990 after a lot of work/guesses. Everybody checks their work 1234562005100990 mod 1234562005100201 = 789. The winning player receives their prize, and now everybody has a new block to start from: 1234562005100201 1234562005100990. Next time someone wants to send some money they will use 12345620051002011234562005100990 as the initial block instead of 12345. Hence, we have set up a chain starting with:

12345 -> 12345620051002011234562005100990 -> ...

There's your block...chain. Anybody can independently verify that the work has been done by checking the answers. It's incredibly elegant but, as we've seen, incredibly destructive.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago

we need the blockchainsaw

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