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So this bunch of fuckwits who don't even know their own religious verses well enough to tell them apart from the word "beautiful" repeatedly written on a bit of clothing get dangerous at an innocent person, and she's the one apologising?
Yeah, that tracks.
There's a joke by a popular Pakistani comedian that goes like: "A Pakistani goes to Mecca for the first time. After getting off the plane, he sees a signboard with Arabic written on it, and starts kissing and prostrating himself in front of it. A few minutes later, an Arab dude taps him on the shoulder and says, 'bro, that sign says bathroom' "
This joke just played out in real life. Muslim extremists are beyond parody
Ha! I haven't heard that one, I didn't realise this tracked so well 😂 In fairness though you can remove "Muslim" from your last sentence and it'll be equally accurate, we're not that far from that kind of display in the rest of the world, it feels like.
I wish I could agree. It really feels particularly bad here (though our neighbors in India have caught up in recent years). Have lost count of how many public lynchings/murders/breakouts of mob violence have happened in recent memory. I even personally know someone who was shot and murdered by a religious extremist. A year later, when the killer was arrested, I found I knew him too - he was my brother's batchmate in uni (a very expensive and popular business school) and had even been to my house.
I also have another friend, a feminist organiser, who got accused of blasphemy because she was standing next to an LGBT flag on stage during a women's march. She had to go into hiding for a few months for her own safety. I know other feminist organisers who have been accused of blaphemy too, from a different city. Their march was pelted with stones by counter-protestors from an extremist madrassah.
Beyond these personal anecdotes, I recommend reading about the cases of Salman Taseer, Junaid Hafeez, and Mashal Khan.
Don't get me wrong - conservative religious fascism is ubiquitous and bad everywhere. but dude it is straight up murderous here (and I feel much of the muslim world generally) in a way that is difficult to convey to outsiders.
I'm not trying to minimise the situation in Pakistan of course, I was making a generalised comment that religious extremism is religious extremism and isn't exclusive to Muslims, is all.
I'm sorry things are so bad out there bud. Stay as safe as you can.
It's alright, I didn't perceive you to be minimising the situation. It's just this issue touches a raw nerve for me and I felt compelled to point out how much worse it is here. Appreciate your empathy.
Part of that is so to a language gap, most people in Pakistan speak/write in Urdu not Aramaic.
So they may understand the scripture when it's spoken to them via a translating imam, but probably wouldn't be able to read it.
It's pretty similar to how Christians would react to Latin prior to the reformation. They're only real exposure to it would have been during church so Latin = God stuff.
Pretty sure that no Christians, of any era, would lynch you for having "pulcha" on your clothing.
And linguists call Urdu and Hindi different registers of Hindustani. Essentially, it's Hindi with a lot of Persian and Arabic loanwords.
So it's even more specifically like British people seeing Latin before the reformation.
I am an atheist living in Pakistan, and incidents like these send a shiver down my spine. If this woman had not been sheltered by shopkeepers and the police had not acted quickly, she would definitely have been lynched and murdered.
The mob of zealots that had gathered around her was chanting "“Gustakh-e-Rasool ki ek hi saza, sar tan se juda, sar tan se juda”, which roughly translates to "what do blasphemers deserve? decapitation! decapitation!"
This country is fucked.
This is what happens when you turn a blind eye to the crimes of extremists. Countries everywhere must take note.
And then Europeans come and say we need more "democracy", how democracy could work in countries like that? You will always descent to things like Modi in India without educating ppl properly.
I disagree with that assessment. At least with respect to Pakistan, ideological capture by the right-wing was facilitated by anti-democratic forces. There is a very strong "Mullah-military connection". It was during the dictatorship of General Zia in the 1980s that Pakistan officially became an "Islamic Republic". He banned public dance/music performances, established Shariah courts, introduced anti-women rape laws and instituted the blasphemy law which is mentioned in the linked article. More recently, the army has been facilitating the rise of Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan through patronage, a right-wing reactionary party that primarily centers the defence of Islam and going after blasphemers. They also funded and armed several Islamist militant groups as proxies against India (not to mention the Afghan Taliban in the 80s with the help of the US).
Had Pakistan's democracy not been meddled with by the military, had we not gone through Zia's Islamization in the 80s, things would not be as fucked as they are today.
And from my vantage point as a Pakistani, the only reason things in India didn't get similarly bad until the recent rise of BJP is because India was founded as a secular democracy and had a functioning democratic system (at least relative to us). BJP is also a populist anti-democratic force, similar to MAGA in the US, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Duterte in the Philippines, and Georgia Meloni and her alt-right peers in Europe. Religious populism is not unique to us developing nations, it is a rising threat around the world. However, I will agree that we are suffering the worst of it because lack of civil rights and weak civil institutions.
I agree with you entirely, what I was trying to say is something like you said
However, I will agree that we are suffering the worst of it because lack of civil rights and weak civil institutions.
What I was trying to say in a dumber way, you have to create an "ecosystem" for democracy and just elections are not enough. Idk what is the best path for Pakistan, but countries like that usually need a complex institution overhaul and educate the population to function as a decent democracy, and sometimes just trying to force this European view of democracy can introduce even more chaos, like in Libya
I can't speak to how things are playing out in Libya, but in Pakistan western powers have almost done the opposite. They have no qualms in working directly with the military to further their geopolitical interests, and historically the periods of dictatorship have been when Pakistan has gotten the most economic & material assistance from the US.
Right now, Pakistan is undergoing yet another democratic crisis as the recent elections were clearly rigged by the military. The US has decided to treat it as an "internal matter" and not put any pressure. If they had done something like make getting the next IMF loan contingent on an external audit of the election results, or on stopping digital censorship (Twitter/X has been blocked here for the past 2 weeks to suppress discussion of the rigged election results), it might even the odds a bit and help citizens and political parties challenge the hegemony of the military over the political process.
But yes regime change and just toppling dictators and installing your favorite candidate is not the answer.
This is very similar what we had in Brazil, but the argument was that supporting a "temporary" military junta was "more democratic" than a social Democratic government cause they were communists.
lol. lmao. Well there you go. That is the kind of role Western powers play in our democracies. In Pakistan also, the Reagan administration gave a lot of support to General Zia ul Haq so that he could arm the Taliban to defeat communists in the Afghan civil war. And, surprise surprise, Zia also started a heavy crackdown on all left-wing movements in Pakistan, especially student unions.
This exactly what happened in Brazil, the argument was that a militar junta influenced by the catholic church was more democratic than a social democratic president not aligned with US. And this was actually an argument.
Also re: "educating the population" about how to participate in a democracy - as someone who spent the last 3 years doing housing rights activism in the inner city, I can attest that people who are less economically privileged and ostensibly less "educated" tend to vote at higher rates than the middle and upper class, and participate actively in local politics because even incremental progress in e.g. public welfare programs or improving local infrastructure has a big impact on them. This also holds true for the rural working class.
So I don't think it is a matter of education. I know several highly educated boomers who e.g. were very supportive of the military dictatorship of Pervez Musharraf from 2000 - 2008. Incidentally the US was also highly supportive of his regime because of his role in the war on terror.
Education in this case is not about formal education, but understanding how politics work and what are the alternatives. I know ppl that never pass the fourth grade that are decent political/local leaders and middle class ppl with PHD supporting fascism.
Yeah, but this is equally a problem in European and North American countries, too. So they are in no position to "educate" our populations on how to do democracy. They just need to stop supporting anti-democratic forces and engage with our countries based on their professed democratic principles rather than geopolitical interests.
We didn´t disagree, ppl is being demobilized by the destruction of public debate spaces like unions, this happened, and still happens in some places, with countries in development by force and now is happening in developed countries by propaganda. I feel you think I'm talking about some kind of professoral propaganda like another brick in the wall when I talk about education, but I'm actually talking about Paulo Freire kind of education. I wasn't in any point trying to say that ppl should be teached about democracy and how they should vote but that they should been given the tools to create their own debates and their own way to experience democracy.
I guess my disagreement is that Western countries are in no position to give these tools because they have not undergone that process themselves. The master's tools will not dismantle the master's house, etc
I guess my disagreement is that Western countries are in no position to give these tools
But my first comment was actually criticizing westerns that think they know better how any development country should work.
True but it also suggested that democracy cannot work in these countries at all.
how democracy could work in countries like that? You will always descend to things like Modi
To which I replied that it is not trying to institute democracy that causes this, but rather supporting dictatorships and anti-democratic actors, which is what western powers have been doing.
But good to know there is little we disagree about on this topic besides phrasing and perhaps our degree of optimism about the democratic process, or lack thereof.
You are right, I was trying to say that I think democracy in the western way would not work in the current institutional situation, not that would not work at all. I phrased it badly.
And cracker Jack top tier analysis like this always leaves out some key relevant details, such as the active role "democratic" nations play in crafting these exact set of circumstances, especially in a country like Pakistan.
I dont know how my point disagrees with yours
By strictly enforcing the law against extremists? Surely even Pakistan has laws against death threats, harassment, and attempted murder. Or are you saying this group so prevalent that they're actually the majority?
Unfortunately, we also have a law that requires capital punishment for anyone found guilty of blasphemy. The mob and the state are on the same page in this respect.
But the question is, is that what the majority of people want, or is that a law impose by a tyrannical minority?
It is a complicated question.
Capital punishment for blasphemy is a mainstream theological position in Islam, accepted by the 4 major Sunni schools of thought. I do not know of any Shia tradition that goes against this position either. The only exception in my knowledge is one Sunni tradition, the Hanafi school, that prohibits the killing of non-muslims specifically for the crime of blasphemy, that too only if they are not habitual offenders. So, e.g. satirists like Charlie Hebdo would still face capital punishment, and of course any Muslim that commits blasphemy (e.g. ex-muslim atheists like me).
According to this Pew Poll, 84% of Pakistanis favor Islamic Sharia becoming the law of the land. This matches my personal experience. I know very few Muslims who think of Sharia as an unjust legal system.
I know many people who privately disagree with the idea of a death penalty for blasphemy. However, when you live in a country that is an "Islamic republic", Islamic jurisprudence as a big influence on the legal system, and with Islam in general having a hegemony over public morality, your private disagreement does not matter and has no political power. Basically, the whole country is held hostage by Islam. And every Pakistani knows that capital punishment for blasphemy is the mainstream position. Every single Pakistani knows that being perceived as committing blasphemy, or even publicly disagreeing with the blasphemy law puts you in danger.
In 2011, one of our sitting governors was assassinated by his own security guard for allegedly committing blasphemy. His killer, Mumtaz Qadri, became a hero for the religious right overnight and the killer's funeral (he was executed by the state for vigilante assassinating the governor; despite the blasphemy law, only the State has the right to execute convicted blasphemers) was attended by thousands of devotees. His grave has turned into a shrine.
The Tehreek-e-Labbaik party, a far-right Islamist party whose primary raison d'être is defending Islam from blasphemers has held protests large enough to paralyse the whole country and enjoyed significant electoral success in 2018.
So, no, it is not a law that is imposed by a tyrannical minority. It is a law imposed by the majoritarian hegemony of one religion.
And in my opinion, and subjective experience, this holds true for not just Pakistan but most muslim-majority countries. I would feel just as unsafe as an atheist in any muslim-majority country as I currently do in Pakistan.
Yeah, so if the vast majority of the country is bat shit crazy then I don't know how to fix it. The only examples I can point to for dismantling a dangerous national ideology is Germany and Japan post WW2 and it was not a happy road getting there.
I wouldn't say majority of the country is batshit crazy, it is just held hostage by an archaic religion that is extremely violent towards blasphemers.
You might say, that is not much of a difference, but imo it is a meaningful difference because most muslims disagree or refuse to act on this belief (as evidenced by the police and shopkeepers who protected the girl), they just can't do anything to change that it is part of orthodox Islam. So the hardliners win on this one, every time.
Only way to fix it is to secularize the state, which will either take a revolution or a lot of fucking time. Definitely not happening in my lifetime.
Out of curiosity, is being an atheist something that can get you in trouble? Or being someone who used to be muslim? Or is it a case that as long as you aren't committing blasphemy or something like that you are relatively safe?
Generally, if you keep a low profile, you're fine. It's not like the average person will try to fight you if they find out you're an atheist. It is extremely taboo, though. In my case, most of my friends are left-wing activists and/or artists, so it is not a problem for me socially, but I think I am an outlier in that respect. I do hide it at the office though (or at least I did when I was going to one), and from my extended family, and of course from strangers.
It is absolutely not something you can be public about. If somehow, you become publicly visible and recognized as an atheist, it is best that you flee the country lest you end up in the same situation as the girl in the OP.
Just another day in a country that mixes politics with religion.
Nearly lynched for wearing a graphic tee? WTF is wrong with these people?