this post was submitted on 14 Apr 2024
-131 points (6.0% liked)
Privacy
32169 readers
354 users here now
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Didn’t watch the video, but… Traffic is often already encrypted with TLS or other encryption & you don’t have to use the ISP for DNS. This would cover a lot of the data you would be discussing. Instead if using these advertized commercial VPNs you are giving the data to those corporations instead which is hardly better in many cases—luckily most of your traffic is encrypted with TLS & you don’t have to use them for DNS …which takes us back to the previous statement for concerns.
There’s still value in VPNs for a several online activities (censorship, piracy, activism, etc.) & threat models to certain folks, but assuming the ISP is the bogeyman in most common scenarios for non-niche use cases is incorrect—but it isn’t how these commercial VPNs are selling themselves. If the ISPs possess the ability to break TLS encryption we’d have bigger issues to worry about & VPNs wouldn’t help. I would assume the video goes in this route but chooses the clickbait title for views.
If possible, I don't want my ISP to know, trade, and sell as little data about me as possible.
FTC Staff Report Finds Many Internet Service Providers Collect Troves of Personal Data, Users Have Few Options to Restrict Us
T-Mobile Employees Across The Country Receive Cash Offers To Illegally Swap SIMs
I know VPNs often exaggerate or outright lie, but they still benefit me in ways I consider valuable.
If it’s all encrypted & they don’t have the DNS requests, all they can see is that you sent X bytes to some IP which isn’t very helpful. Who’s to say these VPNs aren’t selling their data back to the ISPs anyhow?
3rd Party Audits
By who? Who is auditing the auditors? That’s not to say audits aren’t good, but when the code is proprietary, a lot of trust is required. I would prefer banking on solid, open tech which the TLS standard is. There is still use cases for VPNs, but outside like streaming piracy, you might be better served by the Tor network.
Yeah, I don't trust proprietary server backend. Also I2P is a good option that should be less slow under the traffic of thousands of users.
Encryption doesn't mean perfectly hidden. Metadata isn't encrypted for HTTPS iirc. And the ISP knows who your sending traffic to since they are routing you there and are usually your DNS. When connected to a good and trusted VPN, all that is hidden, your DNS can't give away your location, and the only server you contact is the VPN
What metadata? The headers are as encrypted as the payload. That there was a key exchange between you & a server isn’t too useful.
“Usually” is a strong word for DNS as well since all OSs let you change it & the megacorporations like Google & Cloudflare have already compelled a lot of folks to use their DNS ta resolve faster since the ISP ones are slow (& the smarter, curious folks used that as a launching point to find other provider or self-host). Some platforms have even been shipping DNS-over-HTTPS to get around some of these issues (since the payload & headers are encrypted under TLS).
the hostname of a website is explicitly not encrypted when using TLS. the Encrypted Client Hello extension fixes this but requires DNS over HTTPS and is still relatively new.
Everything after Hello is encrypted tho. The metadata is important, but takes some leaps of assumption to know what that data means—moreso than the metadata of say WhatsApp since the payload could be just about anything & from anywhere, not just a P2P text/multimedia message. And DNS over HTTPS does exist now & has support in all browsers & mobile operating systems. If it’s the hostnames you are worried about, a simple SSH SOCKS5 proxy with remote DNS could work with many older technologies. Not saying there isn’t some worry, but there are solutions now, the ISP is getting close to nothing, & for most folks subscribing to a comericial VPN is not worth giving monthly money to these actors that you probably can’t trust.
It doesn't matter if they are encrypted if you can sell the data about what the user is doing (eg if your connecting to a shopping website your probably shopping their). Better to obfuscate the source by choosing an endpoint that isn't geographically related and associated with your identity. I only would ever recommend using a VPN that is open source and well audited by a renowned 3rd party auditor(s). https://luxsci.com/blog/what-is-really-protected-by-ssl-and-tls.html
Sure if you need that protection, but there is a lot of fearmongering about VPNs that are misinformation to sell products most folks don’t need to be worrying about versus more pressing matters in security/privacy
Usually means in 99.9% of typical configurations unless you are a techy or an enterprise.