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‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

403 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers

“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.

When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”

Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.

But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The paper you linked seems to imply otherwise

Although the feminist interventions that helped pave the way to marriage equality rid family law of gender stereotypes, these developments have not always improved women’s situation. For example, these developments created a hospitable environment for an incipient fathers’ rights movement with an agenda that diverged from the feminist vision in important respects,120 and they might explain recent aversion to alimony awards.121 They also left open the possibility that the remedy for discrimination could be a ‘leveling down’ or a loss of benefits that women had enjoyed, as illustrated by a recent case about citizenship derived from mothers and fathers.122

and

The federal Family and Medical Leave Act provides a case in point: It assimilates pregnancy and childbirth to other medical problems, recognizes the disproportionate burdens that fall on women for family caretaking (affecting their ‘working lives’ more than those of men) and yet explicitly adopts gender-neutral criteria for protected leaves.140

I suppose it's fair to say that my issue is overwhelmingly with 3rd or 4th wave feminism, rather than the older generations. And to get even more specific, "popular" feminism, aside from the theorists that no one listens to anymore. 3rd wave feminism marked a massive decentralization of the feminist movement, and now what ordinary women think matters a lot more than it used to. Yes, second-wave feminism made great strides towards equality and egalitarianism, but that just doesn't seem to be anywhere on the radar for modern feminists. At least not when it comes to areas that men are disadvantaged.

I'll concede that yes, in the past feminists have done great things for men and women alike.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yes the paper is examples of both, I specifically choose it so you couldn't claim it was biased.

You think the people second-wave feminists had to fight against for equality sat around arguing, "Well, the first wave feminist made great strides but these new ones just want to ruin men"?

You can keep pushing the goal posts. First it's all feminism and now it's "oh okay just the new ones". All feminists want equality. 2nd wave, 3rd wave, and the current 4th wave.

Being a man who has had to do the inner work to break through my own toxicity I understand that feeling that comes with being surrounded by feminist anger. It seems isolating because men have issues too. Men hurt. We suffer the most homelessness. We suffer from the most suicide rates. Male disposability is a huge problem that often gets overlooked. But shitting on feminism isn't the answer. A marginalized group struggling for equality isn't your enemy. The patriarchy is the reason for all those problems. Infact, after digging through my own shit and starting to understand other people's plights has just made me feel closer to everyone and made me realize the isolating feeling wasn't coming from feminism but from my own views. If you want to discuss feminism further I'll gladly in private, but I think I'm done with the back and forth on here. Take care, friend.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

But shitting on feminism isn’t the answer.

No, it's not. It won't help men. We need a strong, positive, male movement. But we do need feminism to get out of the way and stop pretending to care. Either that or start actually being egalitarian.