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‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
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Yeah I'm just gonna call you a liar. All you're doing is saying "oh yeah we're totally working on that" but that's just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men's issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying "but what about men" has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I've never even HEARD of anything like that. And I've gone looking.
Okay, you're just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you don't like but I'll give you what you want.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like "yeah but what about these other issues I face". You're honestly telling me you think someone who just says "oh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? that's bad, if not worse, and i'm tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my arm" is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss men's issues?
I don't know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing women's struggles with "but what about men who have X bad" it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say "I'm not a woman but here's my perspective as a man who's faced similar issues", who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as men's problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for men's problems and try to say "well actually women are privileged" to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender – most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say "but loneliness isn't just a men's thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!" yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time women's issues get brought up.
Yeah this is how I know you're talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless I'll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers/diversity-equity-inclusion-accessibility/women-in-apprenticeship#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Department%20of%20Labor%27s%20Women%27s%20Bureau%20has%20awarded%20%247.4,as%20well%20as%20nontraditional%20occupations.
"The U.S. Department of Labor's Women's Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations."
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-06-01/constructing-a-place-for-women-in-the-skilled-trades
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2018/08/28/how-to-help-women-sustain-careers-in-male-dominated-spaces/
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), here's a list:
https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarships-by-type/scholarships-for-men/
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they don't. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so it's the other way around. Men's college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists aren't very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US... but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Lmao you obviously haven't. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
...yeah, at least some of the time. Is that so hard to believe? We have whole specialist medical centers dedicated to broken legs but not a single broken arm specialist. Yeah, usually setting a broken arm isn't that difficult, but sometimes it is, and we don't have anyone to help.
True, and for that reason I understand your frustration. It does happen a lot, and there's a lot of shitty incel types out there eager to disrupt a good faith conversation. But this isn't a topic about women. This is explicitly a topic about how men view feminism. I'm not going off-subject or derailing here: this is the subject.
Dude I WORK IN THE TRADES, I think I might have a better view of it than you. Been a blue collar laborer all my life, and I don't recall ever seeing a jobs program for women that wasn't geared towards something white-collar, even if it may nominally interact with blue collar labor sectors. In any case, you linked a few government diversity initiatives, which is nice, not really doing much, but nice. ~~None of it is feminists.~~ Actually, I've thought about this a bit more, and I think it's fair to assume that the US DoL Women's Bureau contains a lot of feminists and uses feminist ideology in its policies. I still maintain that it's not doing much and it's not something that feminists give much thought to. But I'll concede it's on the radar. I was not aware of this or similar programs. Maybe if we 100x them we could start to address inequality in the trades.
I wouldn't say it's "overwhelmingly positive", though there is much more support of the idea than I was expecting. This thread is a counter-example. This response strikes me as particularly honest and self-reflective...it's not malicious, per se, it's just indifference.
Okay, there's a gazillion small scholarships out there, statistically some of them will be for men. That's not what I meant. I meant an organized, concerted, well-funded effort to increase college participation rates by men by offering scholarships.
No, I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the gender gap in college enrollment, not any gap in cost. Scholarships were just the first tool that came to mind that could be theoretically used to increase male college enrollment.