Any experienced guitar players have advice on how to learn better?
I played very little in highschool and now, 15 years later, I have the urge to go back to it. I've been playing for an hour or so most days for the last month which I know isn't a lot but lets be honest, it's just for my own enjoyment, I have no illusions of being a middle aged rock star.
Anyway I was wondering if people had any advice, good resources, sheet music that isn't garbage?
In my position would you go the self taught route or is it really important to have a tutor? I'm particularly concerned about picking up bad technique and then practicing that, I feel like that was a big part of why I gave up in the first place - fucking up the same things no matter how many times I did them because I learned them wrong.
Thanks all.
Yeah, I've been trying to learn Neil Young's Old Man, which has a lot of broken chords (I think I'm using that term right) with some variants added. I think that one is a bit beyond me at this stage but I'll give what you suggest a try and see how my skills develop.
I think nylon fits quite well with the "folk revival" sound, which Guthrie definitely fits under. I wasn't familiar with Leo Kottke before but I just had a listen to Vaseline Machine Gun and WOW! Very cool.
Thanks for this, I think that he is proud. I'll definitely have to thank him when I see him next though. I certainly didn't appreciate how lucky I was to have that kind of influence until recently.
So, I don't know how to play that song, but I just watched him perform a bit of it on youtube... I don't think he's using broken chords (I mean by this arppegios, or when you break the chord up into multiple more separate notes, in the same way that when you strum a chord you sound the bass first, or the treble first in reverse, and it continues ringing with the slightly later notes - but more slowed down or in a different sequence to the one you get when you strum, which is achievable when you pick instead of strumming - I hope this makes sense). The chords are broken in the sense that he changes their notes (and therefore the chord) partway through, but he's still using the full chord each time in the sequence you get when you strum really.
He seems to be strumming throughout, but achieving a more complex pattern by 'hammer-ons' and 'pull-offs' and also some degree of differing emphasis (via the right hand) on striking bass and treble strings with differing force (like when he goes to the G7, he emphasises the bass a lot more). I haven't checked the tab, but from what I could see he uses hammer-ons/pull-offs a lot on the D and C, which is common because they're a lot easier to use on those chords due to the fingerings.
If I were going to learn that song, I'd first omit all the more complex techniques, and focus on a slowed-down correct strumming pattern, and transitioning between the chords smoothly - perhaps starting with a much more basic strum pattern to get transitions and timing correct first. Then I'd try to learn the hammer-ons and pull-offs (if you don't already know them, this is where your left hand, usually one finger, changes the chord by lifting off a note or pressing on a different one mid-note - you can practice this best by starting with one note, and plucking it once letting it ring, then lifting your finger off the fret and putting it back, to get a feel of the sound change and basic idea), and start by just holding the D chord, and finding all the changes you can make to it using those techniques - like if you lift your middle finger off the second fret on the highest pitch string during a strum, you get Dsus2 (I think thats the right name) and if you put your little finger onto the third fret on the same string (hold the usual D shape with your other fingers so you can lift it off again and change it back to D) you get Dsus4 (I think). Or you can lift your second smallest finger from the third fret (forgot its name) and get D6, and there are others of course, but while holding one chord like he's doing you can produce a complex pattern even if you're strumming rather than picking. From what I could see, he's doing a lot of this in that song. You'll also see that when he's doing the more complicated stuff, he doesn't sing and has to look, but when he's singing, he's strumming more basically - for obvious reasons.
Once I was happy with the smooth transition between chords (and knowing the chord fingerings themselves), the basic strum pattern, and the ability to add or remove notes to chords, I'd try to put it all together one part at a time and work up. But I would try all the separate parts first. At that stage, I'd not stop or fixate on a part I was getting wrong, but try to get the whole song through even with mistakes, even with slow downs or at the wrong temp, then maybe go back to parts again to get them better, then back to the whole song even with mistakes, if you see what I mean. And if I was getting annoyed, I'd try one more time, then drop it for something else.
Keep in mind as well, that every chord shape can be moved down the fretboard by 1 fret to make the next chord in sequence - D to Dsharp or E and so on - although you will need to change (add, or omit by muting the string) the notes that are left 'open' when the chord is in its usual top of the fretboard position. He does that in this song with the C shape, which he moves down the fretboard to get a different chord.
If you liked Kottke, check the song 'morning is a long way home' (this is on 12 string)!
edit: it's d6 not d7... apologies
I think I know what you mean by broken chords, in his case I was referring to the way his strumming pattern grabs only part of each chord of each strum, so downstrum the whole chord, then upstrum only catching the high 2 strings, then down grabbing the low 3 stings creating that texture where he's playing only one chord by each beat he gets a distinct sound from it. It's not quite the same thing though.
And yeah I saw the hammers ons, I can do them super slow but even at a low tempo I just get a bit overwhelmed. Ah, that's what practice is for though.
I'll keep in mind what you said too about playing the whole song through, mistakes and all. I have a bad habit I need to break where I screw up and immediately stop and go back and I think it does make it harder to learn because you aren't getting used to the "flow" of the music.
I remember that from before with moving up and down the fretboard. It's something I think is pretty cool about guitar in particular.
Kottke is great, I can't believe I'd never heard him. He plays like he was three guys.
Ah ok got it, yes that for the right hand will be precision that comes from practice, something you have to make your hand learn by repetition (I saw that he keeps his hand very close to the guitar, the movements aren't big except on certain chords, so I expect this is a way to achieve that control by forcing some of the movements to be smaller on the upstroke). But, since I'm not good with picks at all, if I had to approach it, I think I would try to replicate it if using a pick by using the left hand, muting the strings I didn't want played in a given chord on a beat. Its something worth practicing in any case, left hand (and right hand - 'palm muting' which he may be doing some of given how close his hand is to the strings, but sticking with left for now) muting - you can achieve it by maintaining less pressure on a given string at a fret, so it doesn't sound properly (but not so little pressure that it makes an annoying sound). You can apply this to neighbouring strings with a finger, by pressing on the string you want to ring, and sort of flattening the rest of your finger a bit in the direction of the string you want to mute, so it presses one and also covers another (sort of counter-intuitive to how you're supposed to want to use your fingers, i.e. very precisely pressing). For chords that don't use one or more bass string, you can curl your thumb around the other side of the fretboard to mute those.
With hammer-ons, don't worry about it being slow to start. Again, with 'classical' guitar, Baroque music happens to have a ridiculous (over) use of them, called 'trills', where they shove a hammer-on pull-off combo onto the end of so many parts, and its a good way to practice them, by taking any given individual note and repeatedly hammering on or off to produce that kind of 'trill'. A good riff to practice them is the intro to 'Layla', because minus the effects its quite simple, so you can slow it down to start with and build up to the correct speed.
Another useful thing about other genres (including classical) is that playing them teaches different timings, since most music of the genre you're talking about is in 4/4, and it helps to understand that timing by also using different ones, like 6/8 or waltz etc.
Here is another area where I think 'fingerstyle' helps more, because you're playing individual strings, you kind of 'hear' and 'feel' better the effects of hammer-ons or offs compared to incorporating them into strumming patterns. I mean that your brain is, I think, better able to get what you're trying to do, because the chord + strum is comparatively 'chaotic' or a finished product, whereas with individual notes, you're showing your brain the building blocks first, so to speak.
On playing the whole song through - its partly to get a sense of the broader 'flow' of the music, but its also so that your brain doesn't get backed into a corner with a specific problem that it (or it in combo with your fingers) isn't currently able to solve, so I think its best to move on from persistant roadblocks to give your brain something it can solve (an easier part) to prevent it getting too frustrated. While you're sorting the easier parts, your brain will still be working on the greater problem, but the easy parts may help it with a new perspective on the difficult bit, I hope that makes sense. So its good to switch back and forth, and also give your brain a sleep cycle to make progress on a particularly difficult roadblock. Again, switching styles (genres, and ways of playing) helps because the differences will help your brain work out the roadblock, give it new ways to approach the problem, and keep it from getting too frustrated and giving up or going too far down a 'wrong' path solution. Brains need sensory data, the more the better, to solve problems. Of course, going back to a difficult part multiple times isn't a terrible idea, because it also teaches your brain that its a crucial problem that must be solved, as long as you're not getting frustrated or fatigued with it.
One thing I remembered that somebody told me, applicable to pick users, is to try to practice a pattern when picking individual notes, of alternating each string. So you'd play the E string (bass) with a down pick stroke, and the next string (A) with an up pick stroke, and so on. I was told this is a good habit to force yourself to learn (it'll be slow at first) because it will allow for greater speed and finesse later on, if you're picking out notes in a riff or chord for example.
A final note on theory - you often get people tell you that its crucial to learn this stuff. I wouldn't disagree, and I think theory can help you 'shortcut' some stuff that might take longer to appreciate by 'doing', and also give you a better understanding of the subject as a whole, which will no doubt be useful for the 'doing' part.
However, personally (and I don't want to contradict hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge here), I wouldn't overemphasise it. I've never tried to learn music theory in a formal sense, just picked bits up here and there from general reading, but mostly its just intuited from playing. Like I learnt chord shapes, and some scales, but I found out that there isn't really a 'D Scale' but rather arrangements of notes in sequences to create patterns that is dependent on style and cultural tradition - that is, most music theory is basically aesthetic, not ontological. Like you don't need to learn theory to paint, but there are certainly colour arrangements that people have proposed as 'canon' or recommendations, to create an aesthetic they find pleasing (like with fashion). But of course, it isn't really a hard and fast thing, and in fact different cultures have their own aesthetic rules - like a minor scale or chord in Western European tradition is considered 'sad' or 'meloncholy' but in other places (some of Eastern Europe and Balkans) it can be considered the opposite - happy and uplifting, or celebratory. People argue over the correct tuning (in hertz) of the A string.
It brings to mind for me when Ho Chi Min apparantly remarked about peasants in his country having a far better grasp of communist ideas than French intellectuals (I think this is correct, I may be misremembering) - because those peasants were doing, while the French intellectuals (aside from usually being fools) were just theorizing. Or a recent case, where a tiler discovered a particular pattern of tiles that eluded theoretical mathemeticians and was considered too difficult to solve, and of course the articles written about the breakthrough had a sort of "oh a talking dog" tone about the tiler, but really the tiler by doing understood geometry better than a theoretician.
So I don't want to dismiss it, and there is value in it, but I wouldn't worry too much about learning music theory (again, often what is meant is Western European theory - for example Jazz theory was a reaction against that classical teaching) if you don't enjoy it - you can always come back to it, and it isn't necessary to learn to play and get good at playing. The best way to learn imo is with a guitar, not with books about guitars.
I did intitally try in this reply to write you an exercise for hammer ons & offs plus descending bass line, but I think the formatting was causing issues so it didn't post with that, so sorry about that.
Edit: I forgot, but another tip that really helped me learning, is that where guitars have dots to denote particular frets (usually 5th, 7th, 12th and sometimes 9th), I found these reference points too sparse in a visual sense, so I bought small circular stickers (the kind you get in arts & crafts stores, or for children, in packs with different shapes) and stuck them on each fret, so I could better visually see the difference between frets - I don't know if this would help you, but it did for me, being able to have a bright coloured marker showing each fret, otherwise they all kind of blend and you can lose your place. I mean, its easier to quickly count four bright stickers than the alternative. If you care about your guitar's aesthetics you might not want to do this (though you can gently wash them off with soapy water), but I am function over form mostly. If I was trying to learn piano, I'd write in marker the notes on the keys, for example.
Muting of string is definitely useful, thought right now it's another thing I need to physically get the hang of, maintaining the right amount of pressure, etc. I saw the trick of thumb muting the bass strings for the first time recently and it was a bit of an "a-ha!" moment for me. Palm muting is also something I need to practice, it's a challenge to time and coordinate it in conjunction with everything else but I'm sure I'll get it.
I definitely like the texture hammers add to a rhythm, so I'll be practicing them. If you can write up that exercise I'd definitely appreciate it, but if it doesn't really work with the formatting on here that's ok, you've already helped a lot.
Your point about different timings is a good one too, I'm going to start using a metronome, so being more deliberate about timing is going to be important. Mother I think actually swaps between two time signatures but I've just been doing it by intuition so far.
As far as music theory, I take your point. I've come to understand it in terms of a concept in my day job called "design patterns" - which are abstractions of common techniques for designing software (for example peer-to-peer and client-server are ones a lot of people recognize but there ones for almost every category of problem). They give you conceptual tools to recognize and solve common problems, and a common language to describe complexity in a high level way, but they aren't intended to be prescriptive and dogmatic adherence to them is counter productive. So while I recognize the usefulness of theory, I'm content to learn it slowly.
In terms of the tiler analogy, I think it takes a lot less time investment to learn the mathematics of geometry than to develop the type of intuition that an experienced tiler would have. So I think both approaches have their place. Bit gross how little value the academic press put on the experience and skill of the tiler for sure. I think this type of arrogance exists in just about every field.
I'll give that alternating picking exercise a try too. I might try marking the frets, I'm sure I will get used to the existing fret markers in time but it does take me a minute to count them right now and having more visual distinction would help, I'm of two minds though I because I think the more I use the existing marks, the quicker I'll learn to use them.
Also, I've started learning The Wind by Yusuf Islam as my first fingerstyle song. I'm really enjoying the complexity of melody you can create and the feeling of deliberateness compared to strumming. I think it's also good for learning to play with that added precision. So far it hasn't been too hard on my fingers but we'll see how it goes.
With palm muting, try first playing a three chord sequence (or one to start with) muted entirely (that kind of 'chunky' sound like in Cecelia), then lifting then mute on and off with different beats, or different chords, to make a pattern.
With left hand muting, try playing one (or three) chords, and alternating pressing and relaxing your fingers, with a simple rythym so you're not doing too much at once.
With the metronome, many people reccomend it, presumably for a good reason, but I will say that I've never used one, but its presumably helpful.
With the fret markers, its kind of like stabilizing wheels when learning to ride a bike, so that you can learn pedalling etc first before worrying about balance. I don't use them anymore (I kind of feel what fret I'm on not so much visually but by relative distance and the feel of the strings more), and I don't think they impeded me learning that, but of course different things work for different people - they do make the initial counting frets easier!
Yusuf Islam is great for fingerstyle!
I will try to write the excersise again, as a new reply not in this thread, because its frustrating reformatting over and over - I keep getting an invalid_body_field error when I try to post, idk if it thinks I'm trying to write code?
Some book recomendations, these aren't 'how to play' (though they do have tips), but more just pieces (in tableture and sheet music) that are well arranged and with a lot for begginers. Obviously if you can find them free its better, and I don't want to tell you to spend money if you end up not being into fingerstyle, but for your consideration. On that subject, before even thinking of perhaps getting a nylon string, or maybe a steel string better made for fingerstyle, go to a guitar shop and ask to try them first, so you can get a feel of them (ask them to tune them or bring a tuner, they're always out).
These two are good for learning, arranged well and in order of complexity. A lot are called 'study no.2' or similar (like Etude), because they are exercises for students. You'll end up realising a lot 'oh this is just C chord with variations' as you play, and they're good for learning scales, chords, and timing in a 'doing' or intuitive sense.
There are a whole range of these by this publisher, of different composers like Bach or Mozart (good because they're orchestral or piano pieces transcribed for solo fingerstyle guitar, so it helps with learning), and also of different styles, like Latin or Jazz Standards or Film Score and so on. Unfortunately, they tend to have only around 15 or so pieces. But they're generally well arranged, and not too difficult - not 'studies' but also not some kind of advanced concert level piece. You'll also be more familiar with the songs, from films and shows and so on.
This is great for starting with Spanish style - its not complicated like flamenco, again well arranged and for beginners.
This is more your genre to a degree, and its good because (while being probably more complicated arrangements than the above reccomendations), you'll be a lot more familiar with the songs, their timing and style and so on. And, as I mentioned, its a lot easier to get a satisfactory level of fidelity to the 'whole band' sound with fingerstyle, compared to strumming.
These are mostly more 'pop' songs, again good because of familiarity. Despite the effusive title, they may not be songs you'd enjoy listening to, and the quality of arrangement does vary more than the previous ones, but they're generally relatively simple, and also there's a lot of them.
This is an excellent resource of arrangements of Irish/Celtic 'folk' music, which is good as it will be a difference in style and manner of playing. The arrangements vary a lot more in difficulty, but there are lots of easy ones to start with.
Of course, there are many more, for different genres and styles and regions. But these are all good for starting to learn fingerstyle, and even though many are easy (and you'll end up disliking some), there are pieces in there that you'll end up playing indefinately. And some pieces you'll learn the simplified version of, like Canon in D, and then as you progress you can find published the actual concert level music (often individually rather than as part of a collection), to make it sound even better. I tend to avoid the ones that are specific to a band, because I found that the arrangements aren't always so good - its more kind of 'merchandise'. Also, because I can't read sheet music, I always make sure they have the tableture as well, which I can read. The ones with just chords aren't worth it imo, but then again if you can 'play by ear' you can probably use them to figure stuff out.
I'll give those muting exercises a try.
Do you play much with others? I've mostly heard the metronome advice in relation to that. So that when you go to play with others you have experience keeping tightly in time. Though playing to a backing track would probably serve a similar purpose and I think some people are innately better at keeping time as well.
Thanks a lot for those book recommendations too, I'll definitely seek them out. Tablature is useful, while I can read sheet music a little (learned when I was younger) translating that to the guitar neck is a challenge.
Hi, apologies for the delayed reply, work got in the way.
I've tried again with the exercise, and it didn't give me an error this time, but the tab didn't work at all, it messed all the spacing and sizing up when I posted it.. not sure how to fix that unfortunately.
I have played a lot with others yes, not so much at the moment. I think its maybe better to develop your own kind of time discipline, so that if you're playing with people who go out of time (excited or drunk usually) they can follow you. As before, I can't comment on the utility of a metronome, having never used one, but I expect it must be helpful - however its clearly not vital. If I'm playing rythym, I often need to tap my foot, but with fingerstyle or lead I don't need to, maybe because the notes being more broken up than chords helps you keep beat better? I'm not sure its an 'innate' thing, though it might be that people's differing experience helps, but rather that I learned by practicing (on my own, and with other people).
Yes, I think tableture is a lot better for guitar, since sheet music I think is developed or at least refined for orchestras, where they're expected to know the piece they're playing anyhow so it emphasises the beats/timing more than the notes, and isn't tailored for a particular instrument.
Hope the practice is going well, and good luck with it - anymore questions let me know.
No worries at all, I appreciate the effort regardless.
I think I'm coming to realize that a lot of things, like the metronome, are just one way to learn something amongst many and the "best" way really varies person to person.
Practice is going pretty well - had a busy weekend so not a lot of time but I've got the structure of The Wind down and it's just a matter of repetition now to build speed and precision. It's been fun. I'll certainly be coming back to this thread a lot as time goes on for all the great resources and if I come upon some specific issues later in my learning I'll definitely reach out.
Thanks again for all your input.