Fuck Cars
This community exists as a sister community/copycat community to the r/fuckcars subreddit.
This community exists for the following reasons:
- to raise awareness around the dangers, inefficiencies and injustice that can come from car dependence.
- to allow a place to discuss and promote more healthy transport methods and ways of living.
You can find the Matrix chat room for this community here.
Rules
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Be nice to each other. Being aggressive or inflammatory towards other users will get you banned. Name calling or obvious trolling falls under that. Hate cars, hate the system, but not people. While some drivers definitely deserve some hate, most of them didn't choose car-centric life out of free will.
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No bigotry or hate. Racism, transphobia, misogyny, ableism, homophobia, chauvinism, fat-shaming, body-shaming, stigmatization of people experiencing homeless or substance users, etc. are not tolerated. Don't use slurs. You can laugh at someone's fragile masculinity without associating it with their body. The correlation between car-culture and body weight is not an excuse for fat-shaming.
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Stay on-topic. Submissions should be on-topic to the externalities of car culture in urban development and communities globally. Posting about alternatives to cars and car culture is fine. Don't post literal car fucking.
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No traffic violence. Do not post depictions of traffic violence. NSFW or NSFL posts are not allowed. Gawking at crashes is not allowed. Be respectful to people who are a victim of traffic violence or otherwise traumatized by it. News articles about crashes and statistics about traffic violence are allowed. Glorifying traffic violence will get you banned.
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No reposts. Before sharing, check if your post isn't a repost. Reposts that add something new are fine. Reposts that are sharing content from somewhere else are fine too.
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No misinformation. Masks and vaccines save lives during a pandemic, climate change is real and anthropogenic - and denial of these and other established facts will get you banned. False or highly speculative titles will get your post deleted.
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No harassment. Posts that (may) cause harassment, dogpiling or brigading, intentionally or not, will be removed. Please do not post screenshots containing uncensored usernames. Actual harassment, dogpiling or brigading is a bannable offence.
Please report posts and comments that violate our rules.
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“Choosing” is doing some heavy lifting here when gen-z ain’t got no money.
Just like us millennials 'choosing' not to buy houses.
@ItsAFake @davel Funny how the failure of capitalism is causing people to “choose” not to follow the overconsumptive lifestyle patterns the capitalists insist we must aspire to. A failed system will fall apart one way or another, even if it has convinced most people not to want it to fail.
Got any better systems?
How about we try a little of that European stuff?
I don't think you realise what the current state of a lot of Europe is, it is not good. Capitalism is bringing a lot of people into poverty and ruining the nature.
It's socialism or barbarism.
I didn't realize that wasn't capitalism. Interesting. I'll look into it more
Quantity makes the poison.
Before capitalism we had feudalism!
Anarchist communism
Sounds super edgy and fun. Let's do it bro.
News in UK today said car insurance for young drivers is now £3000 a year on average ($4000USD)
What? That's in no way sustainable.
Exactly the point of this post
Yup, at UK minimum wage 17 year olds would have to work 9 hours a week just to pay for car insurance. Then there is road tax, fuel, MOT, repairs, and buying the car in the first place.
Yes. Owning a car is a constant expense. For something that gets used a small percent of the day.
I rent if I ever need a car. The rent by-the-minute schemes near me include charging or fuel, insurance and everything for ~25ct/minute. Ideal for local trips with passengers. Otherwise I bike everywhere in Munich.
Prepare for the next headline saying that "Gen Z is killing the car industry".
And we'll savour the kill 🔪
I guess you can check the median age of people getting their driving license first time. If is getting higher, is probably because younger people don't care enough to get it, because past generations couldn't afford cars ar 16 neither.
What do you mean? I know plenty of people who worked service jobs and bought cheap used cars in high school.
It just isn't as feasible now.
Ok, I get you. I love in latinamerica and was using my experience as the standard, when here is a more American/European centric site where experience may vary.
Ah, that makes more sense. My bad on my part as well, the fediverse is certainly not just for US/Europe.
You speak of "heavy lifting" without reading the article explaining in part how the economy may be impacting these choices.
Choosing not to drive then is an incorrect headline whereas unable to afford driving would be more accurate.
Agreed. Moreover, I'd like some more insight in the consumer patterns of Gen Z. A pie chart would be nice including groups like eduction, healthcare, subscription services, entertainment, etc.
I have a feeling, without the data, that a lot of young people are spending way more on novelty and entertainment things than ever before while they're complaining about not being able to afford things.
IDK why, but this reads like just about what every generation says about a younger generation: bad decisions, worse with money etc.
Even if Gen z were spending a larger percent of their income on luxury items, I'm certain it pales in comparison so their lower average income and higher average housing costs.
I don't disagree. Which is why I'd like some data.
Your previous comment really reads as "Kids these days can't afford housing, too busy with their avocado toasts and Netflixes" which is the likely reason for all the downvotes.
I can't fix people's narratives. I'm asking for data to illustrate the measurable impact of the economy on people's personal finance and leisure over the decades.
For one example, to compare 2020 to 1960, what is considered "leisure", what does that cost, and what percentage of a person's income is spent on it. I'm not really interested in polls where "Gen Z says they're struggling to afford a car" because that's subjective and relative. It's not at all about questioning their anecdotes; I'm curious what the graph or pie chart looks like over the decades.
I think, and am asking for something to prove me right or wrong simply because I'm curious, that there's more leisure and luxury available to all people today than ever before. And I feel pretty strongly that the culture of consumerism has grown much stronger over the past 30-50 years making everyone feel like they need to spend more than they were in the first half of the last century.
~~Productivity~~ Purchasing Power in The United States peaked in the ~~'70s~~ late '60s. ~~The country's overall productivity sucks today~~ [see below comments]. I believe the numbers show that we're all spending more of our income than we ever have before. And for those "earning" a salary based on archaic values set decades ago, it's certainly logical they'd be most hurt by the culture of consumerism that's so rampant today.
Also, I'd be very interested to compare the graphs to credit card debt over time. It's too easy to click a button on our phones now to have something charged to a card without the stress of seeing it coming directly out of our checking account. This use of technology, I think, is a real factory for younger people who haven't grown up learning how to balance a checkbook or the need to save real cash money to make major purchases. The success of services like Mint and Acorn and Chime indicate this isn't my imagination.
No one likes when someone says your opinion is irrelevant when they're asking for tangible numbers. I'm well aware that the economy is harder for young adults today. I'm also well aware that most people on the internet are ultra-sensitive and lack reading comprehension. There's a large segment of the internet that can't be bothered to read more than headlines and watch ten second TikTok videos. I know younger people aren't the only ones guilty of this, but I have doubts they're not the primary culprits.
I really did want to take your comments in good faith but asking for data and then turning around to say something completely and blatantly false (and easily verifiable) is making that hard.
Yeah sure, there's more leisure-type purchases available to us than ever before, and technology does make transactions ridiculously easy. However, the current economic situation for young adults is much too dire to attribute entirely to individual factors when clearly this is an issue on a societal scale.
Fair enough. This is a version of the chart I've seen and had in mind. I suppose the difference is in relation to minimum wage.
"Purchasing power" is the metric I've been thinking about.
Here specifically is the web page I've kept in mind when referring to productivity (and I admit that off the top of my head "the 70s" was a bit off).
I concede that "young adults" and "low wage workers" shouldn't be confused.
I've edited my previous comment. Thank you for the point.
I have a hard time understanding how you can present this information (people working harder and longer for less purchasing power than before) and arrive at the conclusion that young adults' personal spending habits are to blame. The system is clearly engineered to keep the majority poor and enrich a tiny minority.
Want to know where the profits from the increase in productivity went instead of worker's wages? I suggest looking up CEO wages from the '50s to the present day, and compare with the chart from my previous comment.
At what point did I ever suggest anything close to a conclusion or blame? But since you didn't ask, I blame Reaganomics, consumerism, and the deregulation of Wall Street. I blame the exportation of jobs for pennies and the mistreatment of workers. I blame disinterest and carelessness and I blame our value and reward of ownership over generosity. I blame "The New American Dream".
Can't you stop whining about being a victim for a moment and consider the implications of studying the history of economic and personal finance patterns to plan for the future? I am utterly bored of the repetitive copy/paste talking points and the whining with zero proposals for a solution other than "the boomers did it to us" and we're all out of ideas.
Look at the real historical data. Present hard evidence and propose how the country is doomed for economic turmoil in ten to twenty years. A couple of charts and anecdotal polls aren't going to push congress to do anything. No one cares if you can't afford to buy a car when the economy says people are loaded with money right now. I mean, General Motors just had their best year since 2019 so they don't care if young people aren't buying cars. So prove them wrong. I want to prove them wrong - why don't you?
This is what I mean by you can't fix people's narratives. You're blinded by your grief. No one is saying it's your fault. You, like the boomers before you, are so self-centered that, unless you get your faces out of your screens and fix this shit, you'll end up being responsible for a country worse than it's ever been (slavery aside / if it makes it through this election cycle). I'm absolutely terrified for future generations.
I really don't get it. I don't get all the stories and anecdotes and complaining yet no one has provided a full story of the reality of personal finance over the decades. Maybe this does exist and I just don't know it - it's probably paywalled. But it seems that without it, this "discussion" exists to divide us and generate clicks and ad revenue and political and corporate control. It's bullshit.
Here, in that first comment, is where you suggest that young people's spending habits are to blame for them not being able to afford things.
I hardly see how I've whined during our exchange, it feels to me like you're having a conversation with someone who exists in your head and not me. We seem to agree on the major parts but I just can't understand your obsession with tying personal finance into the struggles capitalism is imposing on the current working population. It's largely irrelevant on a societal scale.
I really don't understand where you're coming from and this comment in particular is all over the place. Best wishes, hope the world isn't too rough on you.
Everything I've seen has said that Millenials and younger are spending more on experiences and less on things, but also that their purchasing power is much weaker than their parents' was at the same age. Millenials, I think, have about half the purchasing power as the Baby Boomers did in their 30s and 40s.
Also of note that I just saw the other day is that the price of cars has jumped up about 30% since 2021.
So, not exactly what you're looking for, but some of the stuff I've seen/heard that probably plays contributing factors to this.
I think being priced out of the housing market influences a lot how likely you are to spend your money on experiences. It seems like that's all young people can afford, the mortgages these days are daunting even for people much older in good positions.
Why buy things when they have to drag them from one flat to another every six months cos of a rent increase or the landlord kicks them out
Good info. Yeah, I’m just curious to see a clear comparison laid out. I think being able to literally visualize it would be more conducive to the ongoing conversation. Tough to trust what one cohort on the internet says about their personal experience. Seems like everyone online is broke yet increasing interest rates tell another story about the market overall.
Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think one really exists. I'm sure there are people who have done the research, but you're probably not likely to find the info laid out like that in a major news article or something. There's also a major generational divide in terms of wealth and a disparity between the rich and poor in the US that's been described as being comparable to the conditions just before the French Revolution, when a loaf of bread cost the same as the average worker made in a day, so looking at market forces like interest rates and such can paint a very different picture from what the average person is experiencing because of how weighted the averages are by the wealthy.
About a month ago, I watched an unrelated video that happened to have some very well researched info in it on the economic situation of Millenials called The Perpetual Infantilisation of Millennial Women. Great video that I pulled some of the info from for a similar conversation. It's definitely worth the watch for that info alone. Some of the stuff I remember are things like 43% of Millennials own homes, well below the average of 65% per generation. And of those who don't own a home, 52% aren't saving for a house, often citing reasons like poor wages or joblessness, showing that many aren't buying homes not because they're buying them later than previous generations, but because for many the idea of owning a home straight up isn't considered feasible. Another big one is that only 20% of houses are affordable for the average American worker, compared to (I think) 63% in 2016. This kind of stuff has led to Millennials not buying material goods like nice furniture because they're just going to have to leave it behind when they inevitably move to their next rental.
It's a really multi-layered issue that definitely goes beyond the "the kids are choosing not to buy cars" or "Millenials could afford a house if they'd stop buying avocado toast or Starbucks!" takes that you often see in the news.
Entertainment Things Are cheaper than they were decades ago whereas housing and Health Care are way the fuck more expensive. Back in your day a computer equivalent to an iPhone cost as much as a house whereas today even a basic house cost what a supercomputer did back in 1965