this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2023
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Well known KDE developer Nate Graham is out with a blog post today outlining his latest Wayland thoughts, how X11 is a bad platform, and the recent topic of "Wayland breaking everything" isn't really accurate.

"In this context, “breaking everything” is another perhaps less accurate way of saying “not everything is fully ported yet”. This porting is necessary because Wayland is designed to target a future that doesn’t include 100% drop-in compatibility with everything we did in the past, because it turns out that a lot of those things don’t make sense anymore. For the ones that do, a compatibility layer (XWayland) is already provided, and anything needing deeper system integration generally has a path forward (Portals and Wayland protocols and PipeWire) or is being actively worked on. It’s all happening!"

Nate's Original Blog Post

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Every change will bring it's fair share of complainers, not much we can do about that. LILO to GRUB, SysV to systemd and now X11 to Wayland. No one is forcing your hand (unless you use a pre-packaged distro like Ubuntu/Fedora, in which case you go with whatever the distro provides), keep using X11 if you want stability, if you wanna dip your toes in bleeding-edge software and increase it's userbase to show hardware manufacturers that their drivers need to be updated (I'm looking at you, NVIDIA) then feel free to mess around.

Eventually the day will come when Wayland apps will simply not launch on X11 and you'll migrate too.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'd say that's already becoming the case in a few places. Hyprland isn't just "Wayland good", it's "You should use Wayland good".

Yes, I know the devs behind it act like pissants. That's bad and I'm sorry for liking their software. I use Emacs too and RMS was kind of an asshole. Hell, I use Lemmy even though one of the devs has slighted me on more than one occasion.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I daily drive Hyprland too, there are some shortcomings with how the mouse behaves with XWayland but I don’t think it’s a Hyprland issue and Gamescope remedies that problem so overall, it’s a great experience.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every change will bring it’s fair share of complainers

sometimes the complainers are right and sometimes they aren't

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And when they're right, it's usually addressed. I say usually because GNOME exists.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In case of Gnome it was addressed, just by different people. Gnome 2 continues to live on as MATE, so anyone who doesn't like Gnome 3 can use it instead.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Likewise, KDE3 got forked to Trinity. But KDE kept producing (largely) quality software, so Trinity is pretty much an anecdote now.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I don't understand why anyone ever expects a different outcome. They fork something that has quite some investment into the original version. How do they expect to keep up?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I seem to remember a lot of people upset about GPL V3 I don't remember how that was resolved.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It was resolved by people not using it if they didn’t want to. Linux Kernel is still GPLv2

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

AFAIK, Fedora is the only distro that's getting rid of X11 support, the other distros are still packaging it AFAIK.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nobody's getting rid of X support. Not for several years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Go tell Fedora that then lol. They want it gone to the point where Nate is telling users who want X to stay away on that post. Xwayland I believe will still be around though.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They'll recant after their usage drops to a fraction. This move makes zero sense no matter how you look at it. As a generalist distro it's too early to drop X.

If they want to become a niche distro whose only claim to fame is "we only pack Plasma 6", big whoop, like there's any shortage of that. What kind of distro defines itself by what it does not offer? And is that the kind of distro that Fedora aims to be?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Hell, GNOME has been wayland-default since twenty-fucking-sixteen if I remember my dates right. You're overestimating the value X.Org provides.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Yeah its about time gnome drop support to encourage developers to switch to wayland.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

This is the kind of distro Fedora has always been, both for better and for worse.

I don't see this decision driving users away from Fedora any more than other decisions they've made in the past and will surely make in the future.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

There were news about Ubuntu doing it too some time ago, maybe they realized it’s not feasible yet. I don’t follow their development as I don’t use those distros

[–] gens 2 points 1 year ago

You are right in spirit.

It was not sysv to systemD, and it was forced (by making udev not work without it).

Other then nvidia, wayland is still missing some protocols (example: what virtual desktop you want your window to be on). But those protocols are (still) being worked on. And you will always be able to run x11 programs on wayland.

The advantages of wayland are a more direct path to hardware, and trowing away lots of code.