this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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While I appreciate the efforts Valve puts into improving WINE/Proton, lets not forget that they are standing on the shoulders of giants and gaming with WINE was not that bad before the integration in Steam either.
Gaming with Wine was decidedly far worse before Valve started pumping money into it. Back before Proton was officially announced, there was a silent acceleration in Wine compatibility, getting better a rate we weren't used to, and it's in large part due to Valve partnering with CodeWeavers.
I think the point isn't to say Valve's help isn't appreciated, but to give a little reminder to share some gratefulness with the amazing people developing Wine before Valve got involved as well. It was and is an impressive piece of software in its own right. :)
That doesn't mean Valve wasn't a complete game changer. The fact that they managed to make a handheld Linux gaming device popular among gamers rather than just open source fanatics is impressive as hell, and we're all better off.
Oh of course, but I was particularly addressing "gaming with WINE was not that bad before the integration in Steam either", because it really wasn't great, as important and foundational as it was.
I mean, enthusiasts made it work. Compared to nothing, it's a hell of a lot better. PlayOnLinux was also popular.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "that bad". It has certainly gotten a lot better, nobody is denying that.
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Yeah, that's not necessarily the case. Did it kind of work? Sure, if you knew what you were doing. Was it at all the seamless experience that Proton is now? No.
What? I've exclusively used Linux since 2006 and gaming outside of retro emulation was absolute trash until proton. Of course WINE and code weavers were doing great work but it was overly complicated to use and the compatibility was abysmal.
Let’s not forget that Valve released a Linux port for TF2 in 2012, released their native client in 2013, released SteamOS in 2013 and in the end ported nearly all their games to linux. It didn’t start with Proton.
But Humble Bundle pushed ports before that, because games had to have a Linux port in order to get into the bundle.
I am on Linux even longer than you and native Linux gaming was not trash at all, it worked great, just the selection of games was very small (edit: before Steam was even a thing on Linux). WINE was always a bit hit or miss, but once you got something working, it was usually ok. Sure Proton made it more convenient, but it was more of an gradual improvement than the quantum leap some people claim it to be.
Going from a miniscule library of games that could work (I remember Linux Steam back before Proton having almost nothing of note) to opening up something pretty close to the entire Windows library and running Linux on Valve/Steam's own handheld console for their games is indeed a quantum leap. That's what Proton has done for Linux gaming. It may have gotten there eventually just with Wine and community contributions, but it would have taken possibly quite a few years longer to get there without Proton.
I think that is very subjective to the types of games you are interested in. For me Steam before Proton had so many native (indie) games that I literally couldn't find the time to play all of those I was interested in.
So you agree that your interpretation was very subjective, and many people didn't have the ease that you had?
No, because going from thousands of games to play to even more that you will never have the time to play is not a quantum leap.
If you had said Proton/DXVK made it finally possible to play a few triple A games I would have agreed. Still not a quantum leap though.
Most people want to play aaa games by your own argument gaming on Linux before proton wasn't easy you just happen to really like indie games but most people aren't like you
I've tried three times to fully convert my gaming rig to Linux, sticking with the effort at least 3 solid months minimum each time. The first time was back in 2015. Only a small subset of my Steam Library worked, despite all of my best efforts hacking on bottles, and there was no way I could stick with it if I intended to play anything with friends. Community aside, Valve and Feral were leading the charge, but I could not stick with it.
My second attempt was around 2019. Almost half my library ran, some in need of care and feeding, others barely functional, but running nonetheless. This was primarily due to my curation efforts of trying to make sure the games I bought offered some slim hope of compatibility. Wine was still a very inexact science, so attempts to get things running outside of native ports or Valve games was a poor facsimile. WineDB representation of compatibility layers was a wide gradient of colors, with most AAA titles still squarely in silver territory or worse. Anything with anti-cheat was a fool's errand.
My rig's now been on Linux for 4 months solid, and the state of Linux gaming is nothing close to what it used to be. The state of EAC support thanks to Steam Deck represents a quantum leap all its own, and that wouldn't have happened without Proton. The overwhelming majority of my Steam Library runs with no effort, each game running nearly as good or better than it did on Windows. This shift did not feel incremental.
Well, obviously if you were jumping on and off the improvements look big, but as a continuous user of Linux since the late 90ties I can assure you that is was mostly a gradual improvement.
Sadly multiplayer compatibility due to anti-cheat is still a sticking point as has not improved that much overall.
It seems to have gotten a lot better lately with EAC games at least. Hunt Showdown getting official anti-cheat support due to the Steamdeck was a big one for me. And a bunch of other big games that I personally don't play got support too, like Dead By Daylight and Apex Legends.
Ah, good ole "your opinion is subjective, but mine is absolute".
The quantum leap for linux gaming was that one guy who wanted to make nier automata work and developed dxvk.
I would probably agree to that more than for Proton, but the truth is also that DXVK's further development was largely funded by Valve.
Yes, they just started to pay who already worked on all that stuff and had the know how. They paid CodeWeavers to work on proton, started to pay the DXVK person, I’m not sure if the D9VK fork person was paid but I think so, paid the FNA person.
Though DXVK wouldn’t be possible without Vulkan and Valve was involved in Vulkan since the beginning. They also pay people to work on linux drivers since 2014.
You're correct in giving WINE the credit it's due.
But I couldn't disagree more with the "gaming with WINE was not that bad" statement.
It was horrible. Game updates broke compatibility a thousand times, outdated Wine wrappers were a mess, setting up most games involved convoluted scripts, and even when things magically just worked performance was usually lower (except for some specific CPU bound games).
The results were fine, but the work to get there was quite bad quite often.
UX polish is one of those things that just isn't as fun to do, and isn't as rewarding either. So pumping a bunch of money into it is going to go a long way towards making all the other hard work come out better.
I think their efforts are more for bringing gaming on Linux to more mainstream attention. Not knowing you can game on Linux is a major factor for a lot of people in not switching.
The 10 developers Valve hired have nearly nothing in their Github profile. Proton history is nothing but community based code and a copycat of Wine, just like everyone said in the very start of Proton.
I didn't even know that Proton was Wine, until somewhere else pointed it out here on Lemmy... (granted, I am not a proton user, that's why my lack of context was there, but I follow the Chinese retro handhelds community so that's why I knew why Proton is awesome).
Please don't spread misinformation Valve does not put in effort, they paid people to make Proton, it's the community that makes the code NOT VALVE. A simple github chart can tell you everything.
They directly hired people to work on it... how else would you describe "putting efforts into" when a company does it?
Please don't credit me for writing this comment. It was my hands I employed that did the typing
You can't say Mcdonald's CEO put effort in his work because he hired people to make the food. See how dumb that sounds.
It sounds dumb because no one's saying that, you just made it up. That would be like if someone was directly crediting Gabe Newell with, idk, CS:GO battlepass sales or something. That's not what anyone's saying.
A better comparison would be crediting McDonalds as a company for their work in the handheld apple pie space. Did they outsource the work? Maybe. Did they come up with the recipe themselves? Probably not. But without McDonald's involvement, we wouldn't be able to enjoy hot, fresh, fruit-filled pastries with our Big Macs, and our fast food dessert choices are better for it. See? Much less dumb.
No it still sounds dumb, we know they were built by machines and were sold in packs. You lack basic understand in how certain things work. Game development also applies, Github is still the number one source for the information on Proton Contributors, GitHub data doesn't lie, Valve employees do nothing.
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/graphs/contributors
So paying someone to do something doesnt give you any credit? How does companies work then. Please don't credit any company for anything, they just paid people who put in the work? Who are you kidding?