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Shop owner shot, killed over rainbow flag outside clothing store near Lake Arrowhead
(www.sbsun.com)
this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2023
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Two sides of the same coin, since all "regular" conservatives are also "far-right" extremists. Any "moderate conservative" is just a centrist Democrat at this point.
Except no. The majority of "moderate conservatives" would still vote for the Republican candidate. 74 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020.
And those 74 million people are far-right extremists and in no way "Moderate."
That's the point. That's the Overton Window.
I was with you until that line. I know too many people who voted for Trump because they were ignorant and detached from politics, not because they were alt-right.
There is a difference. Many of those detached-from-politics people are seeing Trump face all those charges, and moving on. Some are being told that it's part of some Democratic conspiracy against Trump. If you've ever traveled to a red state on business and seen the local news, you'd understand how easy it is for someone to get convinced of the lie even though they are more aligned with Democrats on the issues than Republicans.
I'm torn on how to respond to this. On one hand, I grew up in rural Appalachia in a Republican household. Eventually my family pivoted 180 towards Democrats and never looked back. I shudder to wonder if we would've been the idyllic Trump supporter 20-years-ago. I know what it's like when Fox News is blaring in every doctor's lobby, every bar, etc. When on the job site every other person is espousing those same conservative views. So I recognize that people are capable of change and we should not give up entirely on them (though their vote is less needed these days).
The thing is, many voted for Hitler not out of dyed-in-the-wool SS Nazi beliefs, but as you said: Complete ignorance.
Most of the people who voted for Trump knew what he was for and agreed with his platform. That platform was far-right. In the end, I don't find much difference between those so incredibly gullible (useful idiots?) enough to fall for the shallow fox news propaganda of far-right extremism, versus those who know the game and commit 100% — both lead to the same dangerous logical conclusion. Besides, I think every far-right extremist at their core is ignorant in themselves.
I can't speak for everyone. But I knew quite a few Trump voters who clearly did not understand the for-right platform. They thought they voted:
This, to me, is similar to a lot of the folks voting for Obama thinking he was actually progressive despite openly being conservative.
There is a drastic difference between evil people and stupid people, and knowing that is both important for keeping your sanity in a country that elected him, but also politically important for knowing that we're not just a few votes away from the majority of Americans wanting a fascism.
This is true, and why it's both important that we educate people, and that we work towards a country where campaigns of lies are either illegal or at least made ineffective. The Democrats ran fairly hard on "everything Trump said is a lie" and were able to prove it, and that wasn't enough.
Sure, but not every fool is a racist. Most of them are "centirsts" or merely uninterested in politics and just want to go on with their lives.
A lot of Americans are certainly being duped by right-wing propaganda. Distinguishing between the right-wing propaganda that dominates the airwaves and what is actually right-wing are two different things, which I think you fairly note. There are many people, including members of my extended family and many others who I'd consider generally "good" people, but duped and led astray — no doubt. I too have met these same people who cited the same points you did. But man, at this point if they haven't changed, I have very little hope that they ever will. These aren't centrists; these are largely red-hats through and through.
Like I said, this is how fascism rises to power. it hinges on the gullible and ignorant, not as I said the dyed-in-the-wool believers. They Thought They Were Free is a great book that examines this. That 1940s, "Don't be a Sucker" video illustrated this well, too.
I think it's reasonable to say that Obama was a progressive at heart, but conservative because a large swath of the country leans conservative, no thanks to right-wing talk radio, the influence of church, and Fox News (we can discuss modern influences like Russia's foreign influence operation, Bannon & Breitbart, Joe Rogan, etc. and their effect today of course). The thing is, people believe right-wing talking points: (a) unions bad, (b) the rich earned it, (c) immigrants are bad, etc. Meanwhile many people publicly espouse "moderate" views but if among trusted acquaintances on a back patio, they show their true colors. So while I still to this day believe Obama is a progressive at heart, he felt one could not force too rapid of progress for a country still skewed to the right. I find that slightly different than those who were outright duped by thinking Trump was some sort of leader of blue collar worker when anyone with a brain could see from history he was anything but.
I think there's somewhat of a difference as to origin of beliefs, but I don't know if there's much in the outcome or even the capacity to move these people. I'd be more likely to fully buy that argument if this was still midway through Trump's first term. For instance, after all has been said and done by Trump over the years. Scandal after scandal. Lie after lie. From grabbing women by the pussy, racist comments toward Mexico, Trump University fraud, or even the very first lie of his Presidency: the size of his inauguration... To catastrophic response to COVID, the damning 2 impeachments and even more compelling 91 criminal charges across 4 Grand Jury indictments... All of this is public record. All these losers know what Trump is, and yet they still continue to vote for him. Don't count on a large number of them simply being innocently gullible. At what point do you simply conclude, "They just don't care, do they?"
After all, even after showing his true colors and saturating the national media spotlight for 4 years, he came away with 11 million more votes. If people are that ignorant, then I regret to think there's little hope for the vast majority of them and they are just as complicit in the outcome. Willful ignorance at best. Still, so incredibly dangerous. And after nearly 8 years of trying to get through to these people how bad Trump is, how much progress have we actually made among those who already fell for the cult?
Here's where I hope we can find common ground: Every year there is a new batch of citizens who enter the political fold for one reason or another — whether that's coming of age and finally taking an interest in civics, or someone who has had some major issue personally impact them. Generally there are a lot of the middle-ground "enlightened centrist," fence-sitters who have yet to fully commit to a side. These are the people we must reach out to. They're the ones not too far gone and too isolated among right-wing echo-chambers to catch before they're gone (great allegory for this in The Matrix / Plato's Cave). As we're pursuing these fence-sitters, we must also energize the left by actually committing to progressive policy that we know works. Time and again, we shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to water down our policies in order to appeal to voters whom we'll never get on the right anyway — only to disenfranchise the most active part of the left and water down our policies to such an extent that it backfires when implemented.
I agree with quite a few of your points, but not all of them. The biggest disagreement we have is on the nature of Obama.
In his political career, he was always a conservative/moderate. The fact that he seemed to hide his conservativeness in his campaigning suggests he knew progressives might be a fair draw and he needed their vote. Maybe he's a lifestyle liar, but I wouldn't bet on it.
As for Trump voters. Yeah. Two counterpoints.
1000% agree. But it's not easy. I look at some of my family members in their formative voting years (19-22). They are uninterested in the left... why? Because they have family who won't shut up about how bad Trump is. I kid you not. They have analyzed enough to realize it's true, but then found themselves just not caring to vote because some people are just so damn passionate. Like passion is a bad thing. And it's not just one or two people. The attitude seems fairly common, and reiterates the "desensitize" thing. The real problem could well be that after this influx of gen y upping the vote out of fear of Trump, we're going to watch the voting rate plummet again... and we all know what happens when not enough people vote.
I think there were some hints to Obama's progressive streak, and while I generally agree that Obama was probably as centrist as they come in terms of his Presidency -- if not center-right in many respects -- I think deep down he was frustrated that his hands were tied from enacting more progressive policies. Some of which he clearly signaled in the lead-up to his win in '08, like the desire for universal health care, initially seeking single-payer healthcare (something his rival Clinton famously espoused, "would never happen."), then public option, then settling for an insurance mandate because of obstruction. As left as Bernie or Warren at heart? I wouldn't say so; or if he is, he approaches it not with strong convictions but of pragmatism. That pragmatism unfortunately only works if the other side has the mutual interest in improving the country and they do not.
I can see that a bit. Fortunately my younger sister in that age group is still very active and gets it. But my sister in-law who is normally quite outspoken and willing to discuss and debate simply "did not have time to vote" and more or less bought into the rhetoric of her conservative dad that your vote doesn't matter. I tried so hard to to ensure they voted, but it just hasn't clicked with them. MAYBE passion like mine has driven them away, but let's be honest, there's a reason the crazy uncle who listens to Limbaugh or the latest charlatan runs their mouth and everyone else remains quiet. The loud mouth gets their voice heard and to the detriment of the country, that's influential. I think it's high time the left gets loud and vocal; for if not now, when?
Overall I'm hopeful, considering youth showed up big for a midterm no less last year. I think that trend overall might continue with Gen Y and Z, considering there has been no progress on abortion and Republicans have only continued to cripple LGBTQ rights as well as obstruct tuition forgiveness. Though I'm thoroughly convinced we're not doing ourselves any favors running Biden again, it is what it is. For the sake of the country, I certainly hope it's Trump who is their nominee. If someone like Chris Sununu runs, then we're fucked. Even NPR was kissing his ass yesterday...
Overall I view Trump supporters as a lost cause, and I literally cannot count more than 2 people I know who regretted their support for Trump since 2015. Most cultists, no differently than the casual nazi party members before them, will double-down on the lie because that's what people do when they've been hooked. Sure they're capable of change if they really work for it as my family did, but it's not worth the time and effort. Now it's a matter of containing the spread of misinformation, inoculating the apathetic before they get in too deep.
Ultimately, I cannot know what was going on in his mind, so we are theorizing. But here's my counter-theory. He was frustrated because he believed in bipartisanship, in both parties working together for a better country despite neither getting everything it wanted, and he discovered the other side would literally burn the country down for an edge. I think he was an idealist, but his ideal was "one country, one people" instead of this Plymouth/Jamestown contrast we still seem to represent. To that end, he was willing to sacrifice almost anything, and only started playing hardball when he realized after he gave EVERYTHING, the other side smiled and said "so we're going to vote against that".
You're not wrong. I don't like that we can't have successful left-loudmouths. I like to say/think it's because a large part of the Democratic base is interested in truth and facts, but that doesn't explain the lazy people who are willing to allow for alt-right nonsense but not leftist discussion.
I used to think that Roe being overturned would be the last nail, that Red states would spontaneously turn Blue from people who suddenly realized they were in Gilead. I used to actually think they wouldn't let their best tool to rally the alt-right go away. And I was right that it hurt them now that people are living in the hell of abortion being illegal, but it hasn't been the wave I expected. I really hope you're right, but look at Texas. It was supposed to be purple already, and quickly turning Blue in the next 20 years. And that was before Dobbs. I just don't see that motion yet. I hope to see it soon.
Sad, but true. I swear, there's a mile-long list for why the Republican party should be failing. And they KNOW it. They hate Trump as much as we do. Coming in to 2016, Republicans were internally talking about looking more moderate because they were afraid they'd alienated too many people. Trump wasn't supposed to have a chance in the Primary. They're like a zombie party. Things that would destroy almost any other party in the world are reinvigorating them. Non-stop sex scandals? MORE VOTES.
Regarding Obama, that's a fair take. There was a hefty amount of naivety in his belief that Republicans would sincerely reach across the aisle and work together for the common good. Those days were long over, and they'd happily slap his hand down every time while accusing him of being partisan. It just happened over and over again. And because right-wing media has such a grip on America, the general apathetic citizen didn't recognize this, and by the time Obama realized it, he had lost his strength in Congress.
True I can only theorize, though Obama did proclaim himself to be a progressive through the 2008 campaign with progressives naturally drawn to him as well. Unfortunately his "pragmatic progressive" approach did not work out. Though you know on hindsight I can't really fault him. At the time we needed a leader to bring back stability and rebuild the country on the brink. He had to fix the broken puzzle, but lacked the circumstances to build upon it. Two of the biggest faults to his presidency was not prosecuting the bankers and not listening to Ambassador Ford's advice to support the FSA and put an end to the Assad regime — but for the latter, again I somewhat understand in the context of seeking withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Texas is tricky. It's my view that New Mexico is 10 years ahead of Arizona politically-speaking, while Arizona is 10 years ahead of Texas. AZ had yet to even shed Arpaio at the time while the thought of having "2" Democratic US Senators seemed a far-away concept (hopefully AZ remedies the disaster that is Sinema). I still have some hope for Texas, but of course change never comes soon enough.
What's crazy is that the idiots could've likely prevented this in the 2016 GOP primaries if they rank a ranked choice voting system. All the "moderate" Republicans initially too scared to vote for someone as crazy as Trump split their votes across something like 8 other "normal" candidates. This party sustains itself off ignorant fear, anger, and greed. Ethics and reason have no place beneath their banner.
Your reply deserves more time than I have, I'm sorry. I am really grateful for this type of conversation where nobody reduces to name-calling. It's refreshing after reddit.
But I do want to point to 1 thing. "True I can only theorize, though Obama did proclaim himself to be a progressive through the 2008 campaign with progressives naturally drawn to him as well. " I don't think that's actually true.
I used google historical search a couple years back to look at what Obama ACTUALLY campaigned as and proclaimed. Surprisingly, he wasn't saying a ton of progressive things. He campaigned heavily on words that could be taken multiple ways, but on the issues he seemed fairly conservative. When I pulled up even slightly over, lots of news articles from unbiased (or left-biased) sources referring him to a Party Moderate.
I think the wool was pulled over our eyes, and I go back and forth between thinking he did it, thinking his campaign staff did it, and between thinking our optimism did it.
I didn't follow it as closely as I'd like to. Didn't it go like Primaries usually do, with the bottom-polling candidate trying to step out and redirect their votes towards their favorite... with a lather-rinse-repeat? The final vote was apparently down to 4 candidates. And Trump got more votes than the other 3 combined, nearly 50% of the Primary Votes. RCV doesn't beat him basically having a majority vote among the field.
When they vote for, and are ok with open arms for far right extreme shit, what should it be called?
I know some people might seem to be normal and perhaps moderate, but when you sit down with them and explain some of this shit to them, and they basically are ok with it because they feel the bad shit will only impact other people and not themselves (for example religious persecution - "I'm Christian so I'll be fine") what does one call that?
One calls that bigotry because that's exactly what it is. They're bigots and prejudicial against other religions and I'd wager races as well.
You're not a moderate if you support overthrowing the government. They can delude themselves, but they should absolutely be denied that label.