I found this after reading and responding to this post here about early Trek fans' prejudicial negative reaction to TNG. One of my responses (see here) was to point out that any fans of the progressiveness of Trek ought to have been mindful of the room for improvement over TOS, with female representation being an obvious issue. I posed the question "when did Trek start consistently passing the Bechdel test", thinking that it didn't start happening until Voyager, which those hard-line TOS fans would never have allowed to be made (along with TNG and DS9).
And of course, someone's done the analysis with graphs and everything! Awesome! (though note the links to tumblr posts at the bottom that are now behind a sign-in wall ... fun).
The results aren't surprising to me, generally. I expected TNG to do worse, but also thought it did a pretty good job with female guest characters so it might score higher than I thought. DS9, I expected to do better than TNG, which, to my surprise is only marginally true. But I didn't expect, from memory, how much of that is attributable to so many characters breaking off into (hetero, yes even Odo) couples. Voyager obviously does very well. And Enterprise ... well we shouldn't expect much of that ... honestly, for me, this cements the show's status as a blight on this era to lean so masculine straight after voyager.
And of course TOS shows its age, which, surely by 1987, good Trek fans should have been aware of?
Beyond that, I can't help but think of SNW here, which, IMO has a wonderful cast/crew that's well balanced and which I'd expect to be doing well on the Bechdel (as low and superficial bar as it is). But, as it starts to transition into a TOS prequel/reboot (as it is trending from S2 and as the show runners are indicating), all of those TOS characters are going to carry that 60s baggage with them. They'll all be men (Uhura is already there!) and all be special miracle workers. La'an's story has already been sidelined into a Kirk romance. Pelia the engineer was already somewhat substituted by Scotty the engineer. As it goes on (presuming it does), I think it could begin to look awkward once you squint.
EDIT: For those asking about new seasons/series ... I found this page/blog by the author of the parent blog post ... which provides data for some new Trek (Disco and Picard S3 and SNW S1 it seems).
Somewhat notably to me (though only one data point) ... the one episode of SNW S1 that (clearly) fails the test is the one with Kirk in it.
In a similar vein though, while Disco generally does well (best of all Trek so far it seems), the author notes that Season two had the most episodes that were close to the line, because Michael’s arc was so intertwined with her search for her brother, Spock. That is, the more new Trek leans into TOS nostalgia, the worse this gets.
I think it's more accurate to say that it's such a low bar that it shouldn't ever be failed, unless the reverse bechdel test is also being failed in more or less equal measure. Passing it need not mean much. Failing it, regularly, means plenty.
Also, porn basically has no relevance to the assessment of gender diversity in drama.
IIRC Measure of a man doesn't pass, and thats the best episode imo. And imo, the test is mainly good for rage bait and not much more than that.
Ok, maybe ragebait isn't best phrase. Maybe "made to look worse than it is" or "finding something to complain about"
Sorry my friend ... that's a downvote from me.
This isn't about single episodes or even whether an episode that fails can be good by other standards. Flipping this, would the episode have been worse if two women had a conversation about something other than a man? I'd imagine not at all, so why didn't it happen?
I haven't seen any rage here ... unfortunately, your post is the most angsty I've seen, which, I have to say, implies that you're uncomfortable with something like Trek or TOS being critiqued or diversity issues in general.
Beyond that, it's a simple "test" that anyone who actually uses or talks about will acknowledge is simple and flawed, but is also relevant in talking and thinking about gender diversity in how much it if failed. Just look at the graph of pass rates for Trek over time ... basically a steady increase (until ENT). That more or less shows that it's not a meaningless hollow test but actually measures something real.
If you don't care about gender diversity or don't think it's that important, would you care to explain why?
I think the story comes first. A diversity first approach just leads to a terrible story. Something like the Shawshank Redemption, thats a good story but it has no women. And when you have diversity first, you (generally speaking) don't get good stories. Its not impossible, to be sure, but it usually turns into gimmicks and token characters.
In the original Stephen King novella, Morgan Freeman's character is a white Irish guy. I look forward to hearing all about your newfound hatred of this forced diversity.
But it wasn't a gimmick. No one pointed to him and said "Look at our token! Hes black! Isn't that impressive?"
Could you please point me in the direction of the goalposts? I swear you had them right here a moment ago...
A diversity approach makes characters into gimmicks. A story first approach doesn't. How is that moving goalposts?
You're commenting this on a Star Trek discussion forum. A show that was founded on the idea that diversity is a strength. Gene Roddenberry specifically cast women in positions of authority, and non-white actors to be the crew of the Enterprise because he wanted to portray a future where humanity had moved beyond such petty bigotries.
A franchise which has persisted for 57 years, and is recognized the world over, founded on the "diversity first" approach you're lamenting.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
But it wasn't. No one looked at Worf or Guinan and made their race part of the marketing.
Do you have an example of something where that is happening?
Easiest example is 2016 ghostbusters. The whole gimmick was that they gender flipped the original.
That's not how that movie was marketed though; it was marketed with a bunch of bad CGI and half-assed adlib because Paul Feig couldn't write an actually funny script even if he had Mel Brooks and Mike Judge puppeting him like marionette.
What you're talking about is the same thing I was talking about, the very conception of the idea. Star Trek from the very beginning in 1966 has been about pushing the boundaries of diversity on television.
I agree with you...to a point. Story should come first, but if a story fails the Blechdel Test, there should be a good, defensible reason for it, and there are good reasons to fail the test, e.g. a story takes place exclusively on a Royal Navy ship circa 1800; there were no women there, so it wouldn't make sense to pass. I'll buy it.
In Star Trek though, there are fewer defensible reasons because of the nature of the show. Off the top of my head, "Measure of a Man" could have Capt. Louvois discussing Android rights with Dr. Pulaski (without mentioning Data) or Troi expressing to Guinan how upsetting it is that these trials are necessary. Does the lack of a scene like that make the episode bad? No. It starts a discussion, though, which is the primary purpose of the test to begin with. In the case of "Measure of a Man," a scene like that would have probably been left on the cutting room floor to make way for a tighter story that just happened to not have women at the center of it.
Also, reasonable people can disagree on how important a particular scene could be, but the discussion of female representation is still an important one. The goal isn't to "pass" the test for everything, but there shouldn't be an overwhelming amount of failures of the test.
@Blamemeta Have you actually *seen* Star Trek?
Yeah? Ive seen all of TNG and DS9, and Voy. Ive seen most of Enterprise too. I gave Picard 3 episodes before before I wrote off nutrek.
(My favorite episode is outrageaos okana, and I love quarks episodes)
@Blamemeta TOS, and Roddenberry’s original vision, was all about diversity/inclusivity.
the sexism aged poorly, but it wasn't any worse than anything else on TV at the time, or indeed society
@Uranium3006 @startrek Arguably the original vision was far less sexist, with a female second in command (which the network quashed). Even having a female as part of the bridge crew was ahead of its time.
@michaelgemar @Uranium3006 @startrek Solve of the dialogue in The Cage was about how weird it was to have a woman in that position, suggesting the writers had difficulty thinking of that as commonplace, even hundreds of years in the future.
My impression is that TOS writers were very aware of social injustice existing, but completely oblivious to how they themselves had absorbed those prejudices. I don't think that going with the original bridge crew would have changed that.
@UrbanEdm @michaelgemar @Uranium3006 @startrek
For what it’s worth, #TOS was made in the 1960s. The women’s liberation movement didn’t really seem to take off until the 1970s.
You’ll find more than a few sexist relics in almost any medium of the era, as the challenge to sexism had yet to find her voice.
Thats not the issue. The issue is its diversity and inclusivity first.
@Blamemeta Yes, that’s TOS.
Ok, and I haven't watched TOS.