this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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The share of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents who believe that President Joe Biden’s 2020 election win was not legitimate has ticked back up, according to a new CNN poll fielded throughout July. All told, 69% of Republicans and Republican-leaners say Biden’s win was not legitimate, up from 63% earlier this year and through last fall, even as there is no evidence of election fraud that would have altered the outcome of the contest.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This isn't so much a mystery, but more of a reaping of what was sown.

Right Wing media sources such as Breitbart and Fox News, have been nurturing many lines of thought, mostly in order to fire up the conservative base, versus providing useful information.

When you want your base to be an angry mob, and spend considerable resources to keep them angry, ill informed, but likely to vote, this is what you get.

This is a well trained response.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, isn't that the media as a whole? The whole media is about outrage, it's not about reporting news.

I'm pretty conservative, so is my pa, and we used to watch CNN's news coverage back in the early 00's. Now, try watching CNN, MSNBC and FOX, it's all 'political commentary.' There's no news, there's outrage.

We've dimished knowledge into 140 characters with a screenshot attached. No context, no actual reporting or knowledge of the whole situation. Just some quick 1 liners to rile up their base. The republicans have chosen their demi-god because they've been losing, but I can't say that if the dems were losing that they wouldn't do the same thing.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The republicans have chosen their demi-god because they've been losing, **but I can't say that if the dems were losing that they wouldn't do the same thing. **

Why do you believe that?

"Both Sides are the Same" rhetoric is a tactic that accomplishes quite a bit. It stops loyal party members from independently evaluating the other platform. It's an excellent way to get people to not vote. It's a way to excuse unacceptable behavior within one's own party.

I am immediately suspicious of any Both sides are the same messaging. If it is believed, all sorts of critical thinking gets pushed off to the side.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

The both sides message is particularly insidious because it takes a real criticism and then equates it with something that is potentially much worse. It does nothing but limit options, and breeds nihilistic cynicism and nothing more. The worst part about it is that it is based on an absolute lie: the idea of both sides being the same doesn't make any fucking sense, because in this world nothing is the same. If it was the same, it wouldn't need to have a distinction. It's an argument against progress, and therefore a wholly conservative viewpoint in that it states that rather than choosing the best of the two options to not bother at all. To stay the same, or even revert.

It's totally dystopian and reminds me of Russian propaganda, which is designed to erode faith in everything, so that the people in power can make the decisions while the people feel helpless.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Why do you believe that?

Because I don't believe those who vote republican are inherently more evil or stupid than those who vote democrat.

Because I saw the movement Obama made, and although he is much much much better than Trump, he was borderline Demi-god status to the left. Because throughout history, there are evil far left leaders that misled people and far right people that misled people.

Do you think the left in the U.S. are immune to tactics that have worked throughout human history in countries throughout south america, europe, asia and africa?

It stops loyal party members from independently evaluating the other platform. It’s an excellent way to get people to not vote. It’s a way to excuse unacceptable behavior within one’s own party.

Or it tells people that party loyalty is trash, that both parties are capable of good and evil and have good and bad candidates, regardless of the letter by their name.

Saying 'My political side is different, it is objectively better than the other' is the problem. The beneficiaries of the division are, as you probably know, the rich. Show me a democrat that doesn't take rich folks money to help their campaign.

I am immediately suspicious of any Both sides are the same messaging.

Do you think only the right is capable of electing and following bad political candidates?

If it is believed, all sorts of critical thinking gets pushed off to the side.

As I stated above, the 'my side is objectively better' rhetoric does that. Thinking that both sides are capable of good things and bad makes you think about and consider which policies each are pushing that's good and the ones that are bad. Staying dug into your side is what keeps you in an echo chamber.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not American, so I have no emotional attachment to either of your parties. I just see what I see.

There is exactly one party in the US that gerrymanders. There is one party that pushes heavily on voter suppression of non white voters. There is exactly one party that shreds child labor laws. There is exactly one party that strives to strip basic human rights from marginalized groups. One party that seems to attract Nazis.

None of the above is being hyperbolic. All of it is synonymous with one party. This isn't a comprehensive list.

Now here's the crux of it: I haven't named the party. If you and I were talking about some other country, where neither of us had any personal stake, the description I laid out should evoke a sense of "how cartoonishly evil and undemocratic can they possibly be?".

Why would you ever feel obligated to defend or make excuses for the unconscionable? Are those your personal values, or is that the sort of stuff that you're supposed just go along with?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Both parties are capable of the same things by definition, but there's no universal law that keeps them both the same amount of good or bad. If one party continues to push policies that are bad (for whatever criteria of "bad" you're using), it stacks up and affects their overall average position on things. This process is reversible but it won't stop itself by default.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Both parties are capable of the same things by definition

Exactly. I'm, in general, against blanket statements saying that one group of people is inherently worth less, is more stupid or malleable that another group of people. Germany fell into fascism, does that mean the German people are inherently worse people and that's why they followed the evil leader they did? No. The fact that England fought against these fascists, does that mean England is inherently better, good and would never follow an evil leader? No, they committed absurd atrocities throughout their imperialist rule.

If one party continues to push policies that are bad (for whatever criteria of “bad” you’re using), it stacks up

Unfortunately, what's been considered 'bad' is simply things we disagree with. I disagree with most liberal policies, it doesn't make the other side 'bad'

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

idk though like... voter disenfranchisement, election denial, pretty much everything Trump's done... opposing education, financial irresponsibility, disregard for the environment... some of these are debatable but do you actually like these things? It's only be worth it if you think their social policies regarding LGBT/race/gender/etc. outweigh all of that. I obviously disagree with that, and I think putting those opinioms above the health of the nation even if you do agree with them is irresponsible and dengerous. Don't take my word for it though-- don't listen to what people say, look at what they do. Just go find the most recent legislation passed or behavior observed for both parties and tell me they're the same. I wish they were, it's not healthy to only have one party choice because you feel like the other one is insane, but somehow that's where we are right now.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We've prevented criminals from voting for hundreds of years, how is that conservatives fault?

election denial

For the 4 years the left denied Trump won the election, then in 2020 when biden won, they claim that it was rock solid and there couldn't possibly be fraud?

pretty much everything Trump’s done

Trump was the first president in some 30+ years not to start a foreign military conflict. Are you pro-foreign military conflicts?

opposing education

Where did he oppose education?

financial irresponsibility

Our country is $30T in debt. Trump spent a lot, but if you want trash every president that has spent a lot, you have a long list.

disregard for the environment

What are you refering to?

some of these are debatable but do you actually like these things?

As you can see, just stating something doesn't make it true. Once again, Trump, just like every president, did some good things, and did some bad. Just like Obama, Just like Bush, just like Biden. You continuing to act like it's binary between being good and bad, and that republicans are all bad and democrats are all good is absurd.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I typed up a whole reaponse to this but Lemmy was down so it ate it. I'll summarize by saying: voter deregistration and closing voting centers, the left only mentioned the popular vote being lost which is not an accusation of election denial, obviously I don't like foreign conflict don't strawman me, he hired Betsy DeVos, yes we should do that, leaving the Paris Climate Accords and loosening railroad regulations which may have contributed to the train crashes recently (including the Ohio disaster).

I have stated multiple times that I don't think all dems are good or all repubs are bad, don't misrepresent me please. I evaluate all political actions based on my own independent criteria including self-consistency, likely consequences, benefits to Americans and the people that I care about, and overall effects on economics, education, culture, the world, freedom of options, etc. Republicans have consistently failed these criteria.

My tipping point was Covid. It would have been acceptable to say that the lockdowns weren't worth it. It was not acceptable to deny the reality of Covid's existence and the lives it ruined or ended. I can respect people who disagree with me. I cannot respect people who are elected to help us but have no desire to do that and in fact actively make our lives worse for their own personal benefit.