cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/25820829
this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2025
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There ain't no war but class war. The reason America and other democracies around the world are failing to stand up to Russia is because the oligarchs of those democracies are jealous of Russian oligarchs.
Being a billionaire in Russia grants you the power and resources of the state. You can openly murder members of the press, forever imprison the political opposition, bury activists, and crush your workers for trying to unionize. And all you have to do is kiss one ring, that's it.
Then you can continue destroying the country and turning it into a machine that kills the poor, while you sip on your drink on a beach in Thailand.
I don't think Putin owns Trump because he's been compromised in some way, he and other rich people just like the way Putin runs things. So long as you're loyal you get to do whatever you want.
Thank you for not falling for all that liberal pro Ukraine propaganda.
The difference between a Russia controlled oligarchy and a western oligarchy wasn't/isn't worth killing all those poor Ukrainian (and Russian) sods.
Eh..... Just because I recognize class war when I see it doesn't mean I don't support Ukraine's right to independence.
It was the Russian oligarchs who started the war and should receive the lion's share of blame for the deaths of both Ukrainian and Russian civilians. Russia is clearly a more hierarchical and violent government than just about any nation in the world, and I won't strip away the Ukrainian people's autonomy and right to choose the future they will.
Based
Sorry, but as soon as you start blaming one imperialist more that the other, you're pack, playing the imperialists' games.
Is Putin a horrible fascist? Yes. Am I trusting the media that Ukraine wants to be a liberal paradise where everyone is free to do and say what they want, as long as they win this proxy war of Europe/the US? Nope.
You are doing the same by capitulating to a fascist invasion without regard to the people being invaded.......
But apparently not horrible enough to validate self defense?
What the media says is irrelevant to the nature of the conflict. A sovereign nation is defending itself versus a fascist invasion.
Ahh, so Ukrainians have no autonomy or right to fight against an invasion? If Ukrainians were solely puppets of the US and Western Europe they wouldn't be willing to lay their lives down for their country, nor could they have ever defended themselves against such a larger and more well equipped foe. They would have fallen to the initial invasion, just as Russia initially thought was going to happen.
The cognitive dissonance required to attack "the media" while regurgitating pro Russian media is astounding. I really wonder if you are purposely being obtuse for propaganda purposes, or if you are just such a contrarian you actually believe the nonsense that you amplify.
Yeah I don't like the government of Palestine. In fact I think they absolutely should fall. Israel's government on the other hand is generally more in line to it's citizens with what I believe. Israel is still in the wrong and committing genocide. I don't have to like you to acknowledge your right to self defense
Especially considering he's claiming to be an anarchist...
When have you known an anarchist to capitulate to a country they describe as fascist?
Sorry, I'm not nationalist enough for this discussion. I don't agree to the abstraction that Ukraine is "defending itself". The Ukrainian state is forcing it's male population to die for national interest.
All that stuff about sovereign nations doesn't sound much like "no war but class war" to me.
When have I been "regurgitating pro Russian media"? Simply because I don't buy NATO's narrative about being a "defensive organization"?
Lol, you don't believe in sovereignty, the right to self rule, or even in a group of people being able to defend against a group of people that you proclaimed to be fascist?
Sounds like you just like fascist.
What exactly is abstract about people taking up arms to defend their families and loved ones?
Or maybe a people are defending themselves against a fascist invasion? I don't think the people of Ukraine really have a high opinion of their own government or the US in general, but they seem to be willing to fight against fascist.
Like I said, if they were being forced en masse to fight against their will they would just be surrendering. You are once again repeating Russian propaganda.
Sovereignty in the face of imperialist attempting to subjegate a people isn't class war? Again, are you really that stupid?
If so what would be your problem with NATO actually invading Russia?
Lol, right there..... The idea that NATO is some diabolical decades long plan to destroy Russia is ridiculous considering that Russia was part of a NATO joint council and wanted to join up until the late 2000s.
Russia only started spreading that idea when post Soviet states started to join because Russia was funding civil strife in those nations, notably Georgia. Until Russia started funding breakaway territories in their neighbors country's NATO was nothing but a forum for the US to sell their arms.
You are obviously not arguing in good faith, or are just incredibly stupid. Judging by your other post, it's looking like you're just an accelerationist .....so incredibly stupid it is.
I have them tagged as a foreign wedge driver fwiw.
They indeed do argue in bad faith.
Yeah, I honestly don't know what these kinda people get out of wasting their days spreading this kinda shit. I guess misery loves company?
I don't take the interest of the people living in Ukraine as the same as the Ukrainian state. Which sovereign? The people, who supposedly is "the sovereign" or the system of power ruling over a liberal nationalist state with very strong repression on (leftist) activists.
Please. This should be beneath you.
You're talking about people and families, not about "Ukraine". You can use that abstraction, but I don't agree with the premise of that abstraction. I'd rather not subjectivize the state.
I am an anarchist. I would like to separate the power structure from the containing entities (i.e.: I disagree with the common understanding of the purpose of the state).
The cis-men (and some trans women) were drafted. You're talking about the power structure again. There may be a lot of voluntaries, but derserters are not tolerated.
A part of them literally are forced. I didn't say anything about "en masse".
Do you think that Russia is the only actor spreading propaganda? O.o It's even working in Europe: All of Germany (and I think France?) is incredibly hyped for militarization!
You probably won't believe me, but I condemn any imperialism. Not just the one done by the "bad guys".
You are literally talking about a war between sovereigns. Are you trying to explain to me that war between sovereigns is actually class war? Was WW1 only a long and (mostly) failed proletarian revolution to you? Would you have been on the side of the SPD when they agreed to the war bond in 1914?
... Would that be ok with you? / am not the one in the camp of "international law" and that borders may not be drawn by the sword.
I'd protest, too. Because I don't like either colonialism. I can condemn both Israel and Hamas, too.
You didn't specify much on the interest why NATO would do such a thing, so I can't properly get into your scenario.
You're strawmanning me. I implied that NATO is an imperialist instrument. It's an association of states to conduct war. Do you even have a proper definition of "Imperialism" that's not on the level of a Star Wars fan podcast?
May I remind you that this discussion started with "no war but class war". Who profited from these deals? Do you think there is such a thing as a "stable arms economy"? On the planet where the people stating that there's no such thing as infinite growth on a finite planet are the communist lunatics? O.o
I think it's a shame that you feel obliged to steep to these lows. Feel free to not reply, if it upsets you that much.
You don't have to agree with the policy of a state to validate their right to self defense.... I don't agree with all of the policy of the Palestinian state, does that mean they deserve to be genocided, or shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves?
What do you call a person echoing all the talking points of a fascist state? If someone in the 30s was defending lebensraum.... I would call them a Nazi.
Ahh, so how do you refer to the Palestinian genocide? Is this delineation from a state from the states people consistent in your ideology, or is it just performative?
Lol, you are an anarchist and yet you are defending a fascist state? How exactly is an anarchist failing to analyze the danger of such a hierarchical organization as modern Russia? Since when did anarchist capitulate to fascist? You are an embarrassment to anarchism and need to go read some Murray Bookchin.
Again, you are critical of the side defending themselves against a fascist state. You do realize Russia is also drafting people to perpetuate the war? Anarchist have a long history of aligning themselves with governments they don't agree with to fight fascist, you know because fascism is antithetical to anarchism. What is wrong with you?
Ahh, so because the draft exists that means the fascist army that is also drafting people deserve to take what they want? So you know nothing of critical/mutual aid?
Because........? Oh yeah, a fascist nation started the first war in Europe for the first time in decades and has mobilized into a war time economy. Just because anarchist do not believe in certain aspects of the state does not mean they can't provide critical support in the face of fascism, just as they have done in the past.
But you are making a false equivocation between fascist and liberal imperialism.... I'm not a fan of any imperialism either, but I also recognize fascism as the worse form. As an anarchist you too should be able to make the same criticism based on the competing governments hierarchical structure of organization.
If you aren't recognizing and evaluating based on hierarchy than you aren't really an anarchist, you're just a libertarian.
Lol, are you confusing the definition of sovereignty with sovereign....as in a monarchy? In a democracy sovereignty belongs to the citizens. If we are analyzing hierarchical structures between Russia and Ukraine, which of the citizens posses more sovereignty over their government? The fascist nation led being led unconstitutionaly by a dictator..... Or the struggling democracy defending itself from a fascist invasion?
Well, why would you have a problem with it? Your rebuttal with Ukraine is that you aren't enough of a nationalist to believe in the abstract idea of a nation defending itself....so what would be your problem with NATO doing the same thing Russia is doing to Ukraine?
Seems your argument changes depending on who is the aggressor.
Lol, what a fucking coward. You aren't an anarchist, you are just a contrarian sitting on the sidelines too afraid to make a stand. You are just a nihilist.
Weren't you the one who didn't believe that Russia was the aggressor? Again you are a coward and a dishonest one at that.
No, you are just lying again. You said they weren't a defensive organization, which is a line straight from the Kremlin.
May I remind you that I started this by condemning American imperialism.... I didn't claim that NATO wasn't a form of imperialism, it's just not a fascist one. Again you are falsely equivocating imperialism with fascism.
I've provided plenty of examples where your line of reasoning directly conflicts with your claims depending on who we are talking about. Also, claiming to be an anarchist and then tolerating fascism is the last straw. There isn't a anarchist in modern history who wouldn't create a common front to fight literal fascist.
If you really are being honest....which I highly doubt. You really need to read some more anarchist literature and maybe some history books. But again, you have too many conflicting ideas to be a reliable narrator.