Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
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Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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You are still just complaining about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. What you are saying is feminist theory. We are still in agreement here, though I disagree with the way you word it.
For example. You say that the average women wants to live like Instagram models. You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations that men are unable to meet in the modern world due to capitalisms squeeze. It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.
Feminism is in part about how patriarchy binds both genders by expectations. People generally focus on the way it binds women. However it fucks men over as well. We are expected to have money, we are expected to "provide" weather in the classical sense of a family or in the modern sense of just having the money to meet consumerist whims, it doesn't really matter which one your talking about, it's still patriarchy.
When patriarchy is normally discussed it's about how men are privileged and women are oppressed. And while even as a, as the incels like to say, "low value man" you do have some societal privileges, it is very often ignored that patriarchy oppresses us men as well for not meeting those expectations. In this case, having money. Which we don't because capitalism funnels money into fewer and fewer hands, making fewer and fewer men able to achieve those expectations.
I hope I explained this well and didn't talk in too many circles. Like I said. Wombo combo of capitalism and patriarchy that tag team to fuck over men.
This is where we disagree, and it's not just the words that we use. Women are greedy, too. They like the nice things men buy them. They don't care about the true cost of consumerism because they've been conditioned to ignore it.
This is why I agree with you insomuch as women aren't able to think for themselves. I don't put that expectation on them. People richer than us do. Even though I'm able to rise above their influence, the average person cannot. This goes doubly-so for women because women have been encouraged for generations to function as one entity as much as possible.
That's still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don't understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by "patriarchy".
The only difference in what we are saying is that you don't know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.
It is disagreeing, though. You're saying that women can't rise above the expectations put on them by "the patriarchy." I agree that women, on average, cannot think for themselves.
It's not the fault of the patriarchy that women like expensive things and are willing to reward males who buy them things with sex. Women themselves encourage this behavior.
Trying to absolve them of any responsibility is just contributing to the culture of treating women like children.
That's not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It's called feminism.
Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as "men good, women bad". You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women's expectations of men and men's expectations of women.
Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.
No, it's not. It's called autonomy.
Wrong. I never said nor implied anything like this.
It's an aspect of the patriarchy, but it stems from consumerism and greed.
Wrong. I'm telling you uncomfortable truths so you have to plug your ears and deny.
No. Seeing their actions builds the stereotype. If they can't rise above other people's expectations, then it coincidentally reinforces the idea that they can't think for themselves.
In your case, you're desperate to prove that "feminism is the solution and the patriarchy is the problem" when the real issue is greed and consumerism.
We can just agree to disagree here. If you're going to be pretentious and patronizing by saying "I agree but I don't understand the words being used," then just re-read this comment.
Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.
Except it's not silly. It's extremely common. That's why there's a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It's a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It's kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.
Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.
I'm sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.
Hmm, i think you're too ardent in your beliefs. Their point is that there are women who are aware that what they're doing is leveraging their position to obtain material possessions. This kind of thing isn't specific to any gender or ideology.
Would you say that it is because of patriarchy that a man (who can do it) leverages his looks for material gain? It's just greed and opulence.
They are related, but not the same. We are not saying the same thing.
Ironic, considering you seem to literally believe capitalism and patriarchy mean the same thing.
I take it as patronizing because it is and I've dealt with your kind before.
I am going to have to block you now, though, without reading the rest of your drivel.
Re-read my previous comments if you have any further misunderstandings or still believe we are in agreement. We are not and you are being willfully ignorant if you think otherwise.
You may have the last word. I can tell you're dying for it.
The women whose minds are also enslaved to the patriarchy encourage this. Sounds like we're saying the same thing
Not really. I'm referring to women enjoying the benefits they get from having others do the work for them.
Trying to argue that they can't enjoy this without some overarching control is just reinforcing the idea that women can't think for themselves.
Good job doing your part to reinforce the idea that women should be treated like children.
Interesting perspective. I think we're arguing from two different viewpoints here. Mine is that the women I'm referring to have a sense of entitlement to male servitude (the sole cause of this i proclaim to be patriarchy) while yours seems to be they don't necessarily feel entitled, but are just "enjoying the spoils of war" so to speak.
Yes, exactly.
Although I will agree with you that there are women out there that feel as though they are 'owed' something due to the historical treatment of women.
Then I'm inclined to agree with you.
How do you think we can solve the consumerism and greed problem then? I'm guessing just axe capitalism?
It's a cultural problem and it requires cultural solutions.
We need to value different things, and that's purposefully vague because it applies to so many aspects of our lives.
I've recently been thinking of it as a 'war on modesty,' which is what we need to see value in in order to fight back against consumerism.
Do more with less. Appreciate what we have. Those kinds of things.
It's unfortunate that these basic suggestions could solve such major problems, but I believe that's how far we've strayed from the truth.
Yeah it's a very sensationalist solution, and quite utopian almost. Society praises individuals with the means to obtain material possessions at the drop of a hat. You also have figures like Andrew Tate who preach that it should be one's goal. I think we're far past that point of culture shift as consumerism seems to be ingrained in our nature at this point.
With attitudes like I see you displaying, I wouldn't sleep with you either. Listen to yourself and the words you use. That's not thinking for yourself, that's focusing on perceived others' faults in order to take zero responsibility for own faults.
🥱
Easy block.