this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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I had someone arguing at me here, with the supreme confidence of the ignorant, that trump and Harris would be the same for Palestineans.
I thought those accounts went dormant after the election. Maybe there's still some OpenAI credit left on the controller?
They are trying to foment division among trump's opposition, the disinfo machines never stop until there is a civil war or collapse.
One of those dumb fucks already responded here.
But Id like to think they're AI instead of just mind numbingly stupid.
The Harris/Biden comparison was more valid, although we can't be sure she would stay that path once in office and with pressure from Congress and public. But at least there was a chance of both of those. Anyone who thought Trump wouldn't ramp things up or would listen to calls for change...I don't know what they were thinking. He's never done that, never been like that. His history as a businessman and as a President for four years is right there to review.
The thing is that Harris could be moved by progressives winning primaries and the 2026 midterms at the very least. There is almost no hope of something similar for trump.
I I genuinely wonder what would change? What's worse than denying and backing the genocide with weapons, soldiers and money under Biden? What worse could Trump do?
The current issues will end, Biden was at least making noises to get it to stop, Biden was trying to prevent the regional war Iran has been working on, and there were decent indications there would be recovery funding.
Trump indicated none of that and all signs point to encouraging more atrocity
Trying to stop a genocide is trying to start a regional war ? You guys have an extremely skewed view of the world.
The West Bank, where roughly half of Palestineans live was more or less left alone as one of yhr administrations red lines (also, Iran's oil/nuclear facilities.)
With trump incoming, it seems Israel feels they have a green light to expand in the West Bank.
Israel have been aggressively expanding in the West Bank since October 7, and intensified their campaign at around the same time they started the war with Lebanon. There are no red lines.
What new settlements happened thete in the last year? You are conflating an increase in tensions and conflict with expansion.
Uh.... Here you go.
From the article:
Now, I'm no mathematician but surely you understand that's orders of magnitude fewer than have been displaced in Gaza, right? Please?
Yes, because violence in the West Bank has always been lower-level than the violence in Gaza. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make is.
Always does not mean "since I started paying attention" but regardless...
Anyway, you're so close! Let's tey the socratic method, given that the West Bank has been an Israeli target for years, why do you think the violence has been at such a lower level than Gaza since the rapes and murders of Oct 7th?
And why did that coincidentally change days after the election, with Smoterich now directing "the start of professional work to prepare the necessary infrastructure to apply Israeli sovereignty over Judea and Samaria."
If you're ruling out Biden etc, was it just a wild miracle of timing?
Huh? Are we even talking about the same conflict? This has been the case since 2005 when Israel disengaged from Gaza.
Uh... Because there's no resistance worth mentioning in the West Bank? They don't need to do much for their colonial project in the West Bank, but if settlers tried entering Gaza they'd just be shot.
It didn't change, but that aside he might've felt emboldened to say it out loud, but we still don't know if the rest of the Israeli government will allow that. In case they do anytime soon, the only conclusion would be that there were plans for such an action from before the election.
Look, if you understand the simmering West Bank conflict and slow annexation then it's even sillier to try and argue that trump and Harris mean the same thing for Palestinians, which was the entire point of the original comment.
Under trump, it looks like that project might finally get finished, whereas a Harris Biden administration was at the very least basically keeping the status quo intact.
Ideally, as tik tok has taught many progressives that Palestine exists and is worthy of care, you could see progressives voting (okay, but a man can dream) in the Democratic 2026 primaries and moving towards a 2 state solution. That is in now way realistic under a trump administration and once the annexation is finished, there isn't a going back.
Yeah, almost like it was something he wasn't able to say or pursue during a Biden administration. Of course there were plans but being able to act on them required trump to win.
Which is... not exactly something to be proud of since the only difference between what they're trying to do and the status quo is what things are names. It's not exactly a good thing, but also not the gotcha you think it is.
That's an impressively self centered privileged possible view.
"Sure, a lot of you are going to die but I think it would have happened either way so there's no difference between Harris and trump."
Especially when you factor in the Left's newfound support for Palestine and that there would presumably be support to push for changing the status quo, this somehow manages to be an even dumber take.
That's just nonsense. One is likely the end of the road for Palestineans in the West Bank, the other at least has chances for an alternative.
It's as dumb as arguing that climate change would be the same under either President because you don't think things will change.
Uh... Nobody's going to die because of this particular action. They're trying to annex settlements, which are basically already governed as Israeli territory. This is unrelated to the expansion of settlements, which is part of the status quo Harris wasn't going to change.
The left's newfound support that the Democratic establishment has been completely ignoring? There was no changing the status quo under Harris let's not kid ourselves.
These are literally the same statement. In this case the assumption isn't wrong, because while Harris would likely keep Biden's policies Trump is going to change a lot of things for the worse, but if you assume that things won't change under either administration then climate change would be the same under either president.
This might literally be one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
"Sure, things will be different but then if you assume things won't change then they're the same."
I feel dumber for having interacted with you, I'm done.
I mean you're the one who said "this is as dumb as saying things won't change because I think won't change".
You are arguing with absolute liars. It's like people only thinking this mess accelerated under Biden (who is the most paid politician by AIPAC) is just a coincidence. As if Israel hasn't been expanding into some of the most important Palestinian cities while the world focuses on Gaza.
It's the same people who say what can Biden possibly do while funding their military operations. Trump sees the praise Biden is getting from Congress and actually thinks Biden must have been doing something right. Yet, somehow there was a good choice for people who want to see Palestine prosper (Those who pretend that Harris would do better because she doesn't shout her plans out like some cliché comic book villain).
But let's call Trump a huge liar and let's take his word at face value when it's convenient for us. I'm sure the Democrats who never learn a thing will be excited to lose the next election as well. Obviously, Trump won't be a good president but Democrats lost because they were seen as slightly less evil but with no charisma.
Thank god that the Palestinian that got their land stolen and are living like second grade citizen under apartheid are no touch. All thanks to daddy US !. You and I both know the red line is to not bomb their own Israeli settlers, right? They always had the green light... nothing really changed.
I don't think you know what apartheid actually was.
If you deny that they're living under apartheid, the term used by south Africa itself to describe the palestinian situation, then there's need to discuss any further.
With all respect, I had to chuckle at this as it reminded myself of me, a quarter century-ish ago, when after having watched Colin Powell give his speech to the UN about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, I confidently supported it. Then, a kind socials studies teacher pointed out the retrospectively obvious, just because a government says it, doesn't make it true. But he did so without making me feel belittled or dumb so I'll try to pass on the favour.
I'd think of it though like when trump as President says there was massive electoral fraud, when Hungary/Belarus argues for denazifying Ukraine etc. Just because a government is saying something does not make it true.
In the case of South Africa, context is huge, so let me share that with you.
Since actual Apartheid, South Africa's been ruled for 30 uninterrupted years by the ANC, which wins largely on the basis of being A) Mandela's party and B) the symbol of anti-colonialism etc. In the last 15 or so years though, progress has pretty much stopped (the stats on indoor plumbing, electricity, youth unemployment etc are heart breaking) and they've started bleeding support especially to harder, more populist, vehemently anti white parties (the two main rivals argue for seizing any white farms) on the one side and the technocratic but "whitey" party, the DA on the other side. Coming into this year, the polls and election results were the worst that the ANC has ever suffered, leading to a humiliating, first ever, coalition government with the ANC and the DA.
Amidst this backdrop, Gaza happened. I cannot imagine an easier symbol of the ANC's anti-colonial roots than lobbying a very anti colonial case at the ICJ. All the benefits of identity politics and symbolism with almost zero cost. Especially when you consider the ANC almost certainly expected they were going to have to form an unpopular coalition government and to avoid burning the country down, would do so with whitey's colonial party. (And yes, Ramaphosa absolutely touted and campaigned on his government's cases at the ICJ.)
Edit: Sorry, Ramaphosa is the president of South Africa and leader of the ANC. Also, even without the domestic backdrop, you might consider their BRICS membership and what that entails.
I mean yeah he would be/is, at least until Israel's genocide is over. There is literally nothing Trump can do (at least while beholden to the public and Congress) in this war that Biden hasn't already done.
Trump is beholden to the public?
I mean he is to an extent. Everyone is talking like the fascist project in America is finished, but it's not and there's no guarantee they'll be able to complete it. That said it's mostly Congress doing the heavy lifting here; there are enough sane Republicans that Trump wouldn't be able to get away with some of the more outrageous stuff.
I would love to see the list of Republicans in Congress whose districts/states WEREN'T carried by pro-Trump zealots and who WOULDN'T lose their seats if they went against Trump.
Hint: it could fit on an index card, double spaced
I mean there were Republicans opposed to one of his appointments (don't remember who) and you only need four of them to side with the Democrats to get a majority.
That's such a waste of card stock. Use a sticky note.
I hope you're right but I won't hold my breath
That's the silliest damn thing.
Why do you think Israel announced they were annexing the West Bank right after the election?
Ignorant goddamn children spouting off about global politics.
So first, I can't actually find anything about this except Smotrich pushing for annexation so do you have a source that says they're going to go forward with annexation? Now second, Smotrich started yapping about annexing West Bank settlements (not the whole West Bank; if Israel did that they'd have to give Palestinians rights) literally a day or two after the election, meaning he already had plans for something similar before then. You don't just wake up and start taking steps towards annexing an occupied territory that's not how that works.
You mean, finance minister Smotrich?
And yes, believe it or not, the Israelis were not the only people on Earth who didn't know about the election of their largest ally and presumably gameplanned for either a Harris or trump victory.
The fact Smotrich held back from saying anything until after the election tells you the election mattered in terms of what happens next.
That is precisely why you had to avoid trump's carte blanche at all costs.