this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2024
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geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025

[...] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.

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[–] [email protected] 108 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (35 children)
[–] [email protected] 96 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The bread and butter for anyone wanting a TLDR:

The FDO team is right that Hyprland’s community reflects poorly on the Linux desktop community as a whole. Vaxry [the Hyprland Dev] has created a foothold for hate, transphobia, homophobia, bullying, and harassment in the Linux desktop community. We are right to take action to correct this problem.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago (1 children)

And on that note, I condemn in the harshest terms the response from communities like /r/linux on the subject. The vile harassment and hate directed at the FDO officer in question is obscene and completely unjustifiable. I don’t care what window manager or desktop environment you use – this kind of behavior is completely uncalled for. I expect better.

Oh wow. That community is just hateful

[–] [email protected] 26 points 5 months ago

And now in the r/linux thread about these news people are defending Vaxry, misrepresenting what the ban was about, and hating FDO.

Indicatively, this blatantly wrong comment chain is upvoted:

Is this the project where some red Hat dev started dropping legal threats from their corporate account over offline activities by third parties in unrelated communities years past?

Sort of. You got some details wrong but essentially, yes.

But this is downvoted and has replies telling them they're wrong:

Congratulations to the hyprland project, but I definitely will not be using or contributing to the project as long as it's an exclusionary and intolerant space.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I whole-heartedly agree with this one and I am genuinely not surprised about the behaviour of Vaxry.

To give some context around this, ThatOneCalculator (aka Kainoa, the person behind Firefish) and I maintained the AUR package for hyprland-git back in 2022. When I initially made the AUR package file, it wasn't great (and there were a lot of points to improve these packages) but it worked mostly. Of course there were edge cases where building broke, especially this was my first bigger AUR package to maintain. With it being a -git package in the AUR, breakage is to be expected.

Fast forward about a month, a month and a half. Hyprland rolled out some big changes which caused some build errors. But because my personal life got in the way, Kainoa got sick (IIRC) and I had troubles getting the build scripts working again, so it took a few days to get this resolved.

Vaxry came complaining to comment section of the AUR package "when are you gonna get of your lazy ass and fix this shit" (or something similar to that meaning, I can't find the original comment anymore). After that, I promptly disowned the package and let Vaxry handle it himself.

Because fuck that shit, as package maintainer, I refused to be treated like this. If you think it takes too long, sure, fine, ask if I need help, offer support, anything. But just don't be an asshole towards people, that offer your software to a wider audience.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Vaxry (head honcho of hyprland) responds here to Drew's referenced shoutout. Sharing for completeness sake. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity

And his response to the FreeDesktop stuff. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 months ago

Damn, had no idea about this.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Well I was going to try Hyprland this weekend, but I think instead I will very much not do that.

I hope someone forks it from a good commit just before they replaced wlroots. I don’t know the specifics of compositor code at all, but I bet It’s going to cost them quite a bit of velocity to maintain their replacement.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I'd recommend river to anyone looking for an alternative wayland dynamic tiling wm.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

I'm SO excited for river 0.4.0 as it will bring a massive architectural change which will basically allow people to build their own Window Manager on top of River. Currently, River is a Wayland Compositor with an extensible Layout Generator Process support via a custom protocol. This change will essentially make River into a hyper-extensible Window manager building system which will make it immensely powerful.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

While I use river as daily driver and am very happy with it, I feel people who like Hyprland will find river to be rather limited and barren in terms of looks and availability of plugins.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'd be happy to find an alternative to Hyprland, but it was the first tiling manager that really clicked for me and (before the community issues came to light) I spent quite some time getting it set to the way I like it. I'd love for a competent fork or similar but it is well beyond my skill level to do that.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (9 children)

Any recommendations for a Hyprland refugee? Thinking of trying out niri...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago

After this news I switched to using KDE with Karousel, an animation plugin, and a rounded corners plugin (kwin scripts).

I also use a command runner plasmoid to somewhat replicate waybar from shell scripts.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

That looks awesome! Having used fvwm, I'm a fan of the scrollable desktop

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

I've been using swayfx, a fork of Sway with a little more eye candy.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

I can only recommend niri!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

I like niri, but I'll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I'll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.

Right now I'm using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

I'm a fan of qtile. Used it when it was x11 only and use it on Wayland now.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

None of the suggestions are even close to how good hyprland is. Like not even a little close.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (3 children)

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this

[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago (2 children)

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Because Vaxry didn't like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn't mind genocide:

[–] [email protected] 42 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.

20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

To his point: if not "discuss", what is the correct approach against fascism? war and murder? dismiss it, try to "cancel it" without giving any arguments so it can continue to fester on its own and keep growing in opposition?

To me, fascism is a stupid position that doesn't make much sense, to the point that it falls on itself the moment you "discuss" it.

I would have expected that it would be the fascists the ones unable/unwilling to discuss their position, since it's the least rational one. So it's certainly very jarring whenever I hear people jumping to defend against fascism while at the same time stopping in their tracks when it comes to discussing it. Even if those unable to reason might not be convinced by our arguments, anyone with reason would. Rejecting discussion does a disservice, because it does put off those willing to listen and strengthens those who didn't really want an argument anyway.

Like flat-earthers, they should be challenged with reason, with discussion. Not dismissed as if it were true that there's a huge conspiracy against them. Whether they listen or not to that reason, dehumanizing them and rejecting civil and rational discourse would play in favor of their movement.

Stating "genocide is bad" should NOT be a statement of faith. Faith is the shakiest of the grounds, if we are unable to articulate the specific reasons that make genocide be bad, then we are condemned to see it repeat itself. So, I'd argue it's for the sake of the victims in Auschwitz that antifascism should not be turned into a religion, but into a solid and rational position that's not distorted nor used willy-nilly.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Aw, man. I think Vaxry's got entrapped here.

He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.

(Please note: I don't side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)

I think he's the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.

I can totally see him say "If a group of people's solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that's all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it's safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated."

That's an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that's what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won't say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.

Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn't say or mean.

My two cents.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago

That discussion didn't come out of the blue, though. It was in the aftermath of behavior on his Discord where his position was "I didn't say the things and I can't moderate". Also, as a person of Polish descent who follows Polish politics probably a bit closer than the average person, I see a pattern of PiS party ideology / common behavior by PiS supporters of being at the far right and the claiming ignorance when their behavior leads to bad press.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (7 children)

This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.

Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said "we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again". And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn't get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely "fixed" is Vaxry's own misleading interpretation.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I've seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn't RTFM.

Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago

Damn. I only discovered this project a few weeks ago and just started building a config.

Time to yay -Rcs hyprland.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago

Damn why does all the software I want to use end up being developed by bigoted assholes. First nix now this.

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