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Having your tax dollar fund an active genocide is an issue for many of us
This is the issue for me. I care about other things too, but I won't vote for someone funding a genocide.
I'm hoping I can throw my support behind Kamala (if she is the nominee). She seems to be a less blindly pro-Israel than Biden, but I'll feel better if she confirms it.
I'll understand if she has to wait until after the convention before declaring a stance.
The US was founded on genocide. Right here, on this soil. And everyone at the time went along with it in the name of Manifest Destiny. But it didn't end there. The US either directly or indirectly enabled genocide around the world through most of its history.
What happens when you can't support Kamala? And Trump wins? He absolutely supports genocide and will help it along at a scale we've yet to see in Palestine. And worse. And he'll bring problems directly to you, in your own home.
Would you trade millions of dead men, women, and children in Palestine for millions of dead men, women, and children in Palestine, other countries, and here at home as well?
Because I don't see what you have to gain by helping Trump win.
Well, I guess genocide’s okay then.
Sorry for bothering you with my conscience.
I don’t trade lives. If I can’t back Kamala (and she’s the nominee), I’ll vote third-party.
This comment is honestly so telling. You're okay with Trump getting re-elected and sending even MORE weapons to Israel, just so long as you personally don't have to feel anything on your "conscience".
Sounds more driven by selfishness than actual compassion if you ask me.
And if you’re willing to do unconscionable things because your twisted logic tells you it’s actually for the greater good, then you’re not much different from Biden.
What a childishly simplistic worldview.
It’s called doing the right thing, and I wish everyone knew how to do it and did it with me.
The rest of us do know how to do the right thing. You're not doing anything, your lily-white inaction is moral masturbation. Doing the right thing requires considering the suffering of others over your own passive comfort. Often that means making tough decisions. How much will suffering increase because puritanical children refused to sully their hands on anyone who wasn't perfect? Childish and simplistic.
That’s what I’m doing.
And you’re trying to spin that as something selfish, as if I don’t have to live with the consequences of US politics as a gay man.
Yes I'm sure that's comparable to the elimination of the nations of Palestine and the Ukraine. How selfless.
My point is, if I were acting selfishly, I would not be voting the way I'm voting.
Everything black and white. Childish and simplistic.
This is black and white. Genocide bad. There are no shades of grey to that, despite what Democrats (and AIPAC) would like you to believe.
Genocide bad.
Uh huh, which is why you're happy letting the enthusiastic-support-for-accelerating-and-expanding-genocide party beat the diplomatic-damage-control-while-we-try-to-stop-genocide party. Since the lesser evil is still bad, may as well let the monstrous evil take control.
Are you listening to yourself? Childish.
I honestly don't know how to write this so it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you but I'm going to try.
Disclaimer, Kamala Harris hasn't stated anything on her stance involving Israel/Gaza conflict yet (as the presidential nominee), so my statements below may be a non-issue for you come election time anyway...
While it might feel like "doing the right thing" by not voting or voting third party, you are giving a vote to Trump if you do so, which is worse. It fucking sucks that we have this shitty two party system and all of sane people who aren't just "my team vs your team" hate it... but I really hope you decide that your vote won't be for Kamala but against Trump, since he will be far worse, not only for Gaza but Ukraine as well.
Nope. That’s not how it works.
It is though. We've effectively been given the Trolley Problem, and instead of playing you're choosing to walk away and whatever happens, happens, as long as you feel good.
I'm sure Biden feels fucking awful about what's going on. But he was elected to do the job the best he can and unfortunately a psychopath that we have little control over is in charge of Israel. Until something can be done about him. America has to play nice.
Netanyahu wants Trump. Not voting Democrat gives him a better chance.
Again, it really sucks but the presidential election is a unfortunately two party.
I think he fuckin' loves it, because he's a racist piece of shit. He thinks brown people are supposed to submit to their white colonial overloads, and the Palestinians are getting what they deserve for being troublemakers.
He's from a generation where that was almost universally believed. He probably hates that he has to pretend he believes otherwise.
Biden is HELPING Israel commit genocide. Biden is using his UN Security Council veto to prevent the UN from acting against Israel. He is sending Israel munitions and billions of dollars.
Biden is not a bystander. He is an active and enthusiastic participant.
Edit: And the Democrats all suck for acting as if what Joe Biden is doing is normal. The Democrats, as a party, don't deserve to exist anymore. If Trump weren't a fascist, I wouldn't be considering voting for the Democrats at all.
He vetoed cease-fire agreements that called for permanent cease-fires but without the release of hostages as a condition to the cease-fire*. All that does is give Hamas time to recoup without any stipulations, leading to an even longer war. They are a terrorist organization hiding behind Palestinians and hostages.
Listen, I am by no means a fan of Israel. Their treatment of the Palestinian people has been atrocious but, regardless of who is president, weapons will be sold to Israel by the US.
Your edit about democrats only being a player here because Trump is a fascist is a real problem. A problem that you can directly affect with your vote/non-vote.
*The release of hostages is mentioned but not as a condition.. meaning the agreement called for a cease-fire with or without the release of hostages.
That’s exactly what I would do if I were driving the trolley. I’m not going to choose to sacrifice some people who otherwise weren’t in danger, even if it saves a larger number of people.
I would do what I can to trying to save the larger number of people (by trying to fix the trolley’s brakes, etc), but I’m not going to kill an unrelated group of innocent people to do it.
Doing what you can to save the larger number of people in this case is voting for the Democrats.
I'm sure the guy who chopped his arm off (or whatever it was) when he was hiking and it got trapped didn't want to do so, but sometimes we have to make choices we don't like. You're choosing to let trans people, people of color, immigrants, Palestinians, and a whole lot of other people get fucked by Republicans because you can't do a little dirty work.
I hope you don't have a pet, because you sometimes have to clean up shit. It sucks and no one likes doing it, but sometimes we have to choose to do things like that so other people don't have to suffer the consequences of if we decide to take the easy route and pretend it didn't exist.
A “little dirty work” you say of voting for a genocider.
FTFY
You could vote for Cornel West, who does zero genocide.
Yeah can also vote for Santa Clause. He also doesn't do any genocide as far as I'm aware, and probably has a better chance of being elected.
Vote for progressive people for local office. You don't get a choice in the US presidential election except for the top two currently. Cornel West has zero chance of winning, so it has the exact same result as not voting. It's just a way to try to make yourself feel better while other people get hurt.
Mostly because people like yourself keep telling everyone that they have to vote for one of the two major parties.
If people voted their conscience, I bet he’d have a decent chance.
He’s not eligible to be president, because he was born in Anatolia, and he’s been dead for 1700 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
He would not. I'd bet if you ask the vast majority of voters they wouldn't even recognize his name, let alone know what his position on different topics is.
Also, you can write in anyone. Even with the issue of eligibility, it's probably still more likely he wins, and there are multiple natural born American ones. https://www.tampabay.com/life-culture/2021/12/21/who-are-americas-real-santa-clauses/
Well, what I mean is that voting "against" a genocide across the globe could very well enable a genocide here, because it can and has happened before.
I live in a reservation, but I can drive 20 minutes to see the house my great grandmother lost to a white man because he was more important. My family tree has lots of people that died in their 20's and 30's of "Tuberculosis" and other BS reasons just to lose their land allotments, and we didn't even have headrights to our land in our tribal deal to be removed from our homeland by force.
So yes, genocide in the US is always fresh in my mind and I don't see that it'd take a lot to whip up Proud Boys and MAGA heads into doing the next round on anyone that wasn't straight, white, and Protestant. And I cannot fathom why anyone would enable Trump to do that again because of Palestine, which Trump would enable anyway.
You do trade lives. You actively are making a choice. If that choice is to do nothing when you otherwise can, that isn't not choosing. Make your choice. I hope you can live with the consequences, because so many others won't if you choose to not vote against active support of genocide.
Mind you, I don’t live in a swing state, so my vote doesn’t matter. But I might send $50 to the Harris campaign to help her beat Trump (if she indicates that she’ll stop supporting the genocide).
Except you don't have a choice, so it isn't. The only election issues are ones that you can participate in. The US will sell arms to Israel. That's not going to stop, no matter who is elected. How about we elect the person who may not actively encourage them to use them relentlessly on civilians. That's an issue you get to vote on.