this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2024
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Men's Liberation

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Why men feel like they can't abandon Masculinity (slrpnk.net)
submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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This discussion was inspired by discussion on this post.

Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.

The reason this comes up is that masculinity is largely based around externally conferred social status. You have to constantly be doing something to maintain an image of masculinity. Often this means some sort of social or physical violence in the right time or place (beat up the mugger to defend your partner, call out your boss when you're being treated unfairly, put rival men in their place). Just as frequently, however, it is the expectation of a certain amount of self sacrifice (paying for meals, military service).

What they don't understand is how anyone can expect them to maintain their social status when they are avoiding this role that they have been explicitly shown that there will be consequences if they fail to meet. The answer is simple: once you're out of the masculinity rat race, you're out. By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.

The only problem is that all of these pressures are external in the first place and this whole dynamic creates strong social gender boundaries. It is very easy for a lot of men to look at their social circles and see exclusively people who punish them for a failure to live up to a masculine ideal.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

There's a confusion happening. I think people are thinking "toxic masculinity" means all masculine traits are toxic, and I feel that's not the case.

It's not that masculine traits are good or bad, it's that they become "toxic" when they become dysfunctional.

For example, a masculine trait is being able to endure hardship, to be kind of stoic. This can be a positive trait when working out, instead of whining to everyone about how heavy weights are you keep going and finish your set. It can be negative when you feel like you can't cry at a funeral, trying to be manly when you're sad.

The solution, in my opinion, isn't to act less manly but embrace other aspects of manliness. Instead of refusing to cry, you can embrace the idea that men will do as they want regardless of the negative opinions and doubts of others, and cry as much as you want at a funeral.

It's not effeminate to cry at a funeral, and is now a manly thing to cry at a funeral.

So yeah, women like masculine traits (at least the women who like men tend to), but they don't like it when people use the excuse of masculine traits hurt them, people around them, or the men they love.