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Big Bad Wolf Thought (lemmy.world)

submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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https://existentialcomics.com/comic/553

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Over here in Europe we're tribalist AF going down to the village level, doesn't mean that we're at each other's throats. At least off the football pitch, that is.

Europe was in a state of constant war until they began to form larger, more federal power structures like the EU. This example supports my point.

Why? Would it not be in their self-interest? Enlightened self-interest, that is. If it is, and they still have no interest, what makes them choose otherwise? How do we free them from that kind of conditioning?

It's not in people's interest to participate in the anarchist model because it sounds like a huge hassle, an incredibly inefficient way of running a society. Like I would much rather elect someone to make laws on my behalf. I realize that system doesn't always work in practice, but what the hell, if you're allowed to speak in hyper-idealized terms, then I am too.

It's not conditioning. It's completely rational to not want such large numbers of people to be involved in every little decision. We've learned over human history that mob rule is not good. Representative democracy is a natural consequence of that.

As someone who works in an office environment, I can tell you the decision making process has seriously diminishing returns as you add more people. A meeting with 4 people will usually make the same decision as one with 30, and will do it in a quarter the time. And yeah sometimes the 4 person meeting will make a mistake that the 30 person meeting would have caught, but it's still worth having decisions be a bit more error prone to not have quite so much time wasted on the natural bickering and bikeshedding that humans tend toward when trying to make decisions as a group. Go watch the TV show Parks and Rec, pay attention to the scenes where they consult the public about their decisions. That's what anarchism is going to look like (in fact, it's a pretty accurate depiction of real world public consultations). Most people are not going to be capable of participating in public administration in good faith.

You ask how we can "break the conditioning" but the thing you're responding to is human nature. So what you're actually asking is how to brainwash people into all adhering to one system.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Europe was in a state of constant war until they began to form larger, more federal power structures like the EU. This example supports my point.

The EU has exactly zero capacity to put boots on the ground to stop countries from fighting each other. The only boots it has is FRONTEX, that is, border guards. They wouldn't stand a chance against the police force of a single larger city.

It’s not in people’s interest to participate in the anarchist model because it sounds like a huge hassle, an incredibly inefficient way of running a society. Like I would much rather elect someone to make laws on my behalf.

Noone's stopping you from doing that. There's generally plenty of delegation going on. Noone's putting considerations about the cement mixture used in lamp post foundations to the general council, everyone knows that it's best left to the engineers.

While they're probably not good examples for how things would look in the west because the conditions they operate in are quite different, I recommend looking at how Chiapas and Rojava do things. They don't get bogged down in meetings. Here's a couple of videos (also about other places).

That’s what anarchism is going to look like (in fact, it’s a pretty accurate depiction of real world public consultations).

That's what consultations look like if people use the little chance they have to ever get heard in person to air general grievances. Even just emotionally. Can't expect people to act sensibly in your "conservation of the red-footed sparkle toad" consultation while their community is getting demolished for a highway expansion -- without consultation. Replace whatever with whatever in that equation.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of studies surrounding sortition (which would be a great intermediate step in many areas) showing that if you take a random sample of people (actually randomised) and sit them together with a couple of experts for at least a couple of days to hash things out, they do come up with very very sensible stuff. More like juries.

You ask how we can “break the conditioning” but the thing you’re responding to is human nature. So what you’re actually asking is how to brainwash people into all adhering to one system.

Nah what I'm asking of you is to stop saying "this thing I'm thinking of won't work because human nature" and instead say "hmm maybe another thing could work" and "probably not perfect but it's better than we have now and we might learn from it". You're not in school, any more, incomplete and approximate answers earn full credit when it comes to catalysing societal change.